Business And Innovation In WordPress Ecosystem

Exploring Business and Innovation in WordPress Ecosystem – Interview with Roger Rosweide

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By Maciej Nowak

Two men are smiling in front of a colorful, abstract background with spheres and cloud-like shapes. The text "OSOM TO KNOW" hovers above them, reflecting the innovation in WordPress they champion.

In this episode Maciej Nowak, engage in an in-depth conversation with the esteemed guest, Roger Rosweide, co-founder of Wild Cloud. Together, they delve into the rare SaaS model, the complexities of managing multiple websites with different code stacks, and the significance of a large total addressable market for attracting investors. The episode sheds light on strategies for marketing and sales, the importance of acknowledging and learning from failures in business, and the impact of investments in the WordPress ecosystem. Join us as we explore the journey of Wild Cloud, reflecting on successes and valuable lessons learned from its failures, while gaining insights into the inner workings of strategic investment approaches and branding transitions. Get ready for an illuminating discussion on the growth and evolution of a thriving company within the WordPress space.

➡️ Roger is an experienced professional in tech innovation, recognized for introducing 3D-printed ice popsicles and advancing virtual reality applications. As Chief Commercial Officer at WPCS.io, he’s played a key role in developing a WordPress multi-tenant cloud platform, which simplifies the way web agencies and developers handle website management. His work focuses on making WordPress more scalable and manageable, drawing on SaaS principles. Roger also shares his insights into content creation and B2B marketing, and values connecting with industry peers to exchange knowledge and support collective growth.

You can also listen on Spotify and Apple Podcast!

If you like this episode you might also like Starting a WordPress Agency: A Journey to Sustainable Growth with Noel Tock.

Maciej Nowak [00:00:00]:

Hello, everyone. My name is Maciej Nowak, and welcome to the Osom To Know podcast where we discuss all things WordPress. My today’s guest is Roger Rosweide, cofounder of Wild Cloud, which is a WordPress multi tenant platform. And this conversation will be a bit different than the previous ones because we talk a lot about business side of building a product within WordPress ecosystem. For example, we dive deep into what taking investment from Emilia Capital meant for a White Cloud and how it changed them? Or what are the lessons learned from burning through $50,000 in missed marketing activities? If you don’t want to miss new episodes and keep learning more about WordPress, Subscribe to Osom to Know newsletter at osomstudio.com/newsletter. This is osomstudio.com/newsletter. If you watch this on Youtube, give us a thumb and subscribe to the channel. This means a lot to us. Without further ado, Please enjoy my co my conversation with Roger Roweide.

Lector [00:01:05]:

Hey, everyone. It’s good to have you here. We’re glad you decided to tune in for this Episode of the Osom To Know podcast.

Maciej Nowak [00:01:14]:

Hi, Roger. Thank you very much for, being on the pod. How are you?

Roger Rosweide [00:01:19]:

I’m good. Thanks. Thanks for inviting me.

Maciej Nowak [00:01:22]:

I wanted to have you on the pod because for mainly for two reasons. Reason number 1 is, we had, Vynand a couple of months ago, like a year ago right now. And From what I’m seeing and observing from the sidelines, a ton of stuff has happened, over the time. And the reason number 2 is, you post interesting stuff on LinkedIn. And this is, you know, and a little bit of it, like, a different mindset when it comes to, WordPress Environment WordPress Community. So I would like to dig into this as well. So these are 2 reasons, and I think let’s Start with the reason number 1. So what happened, during that that year?

Roger Rosweide [00:02:10]:

I should say quite a lot. And, and thank you, by the way, for for noticing the slightly different angle with which we create social media content. It is something that I’ve noticed is, pretty different from what most people post about. But to get back to your question, The the biggest things I think we changed is in chronological order. We changed our pricing, And this has been something that has been a big obstacle and still is an obstacle when it comes to positioning our platform. The second thing is we changed our name, which was another obstacle that we found was confusing a lot of people. And then the third thing is we added a feature we call blueprints. Basically what it does is it immediately sets up A preconfigured website as a service or WordPress based SaaS.

Roger Rosweide [00:03:09]:

Because for the longest time, we thought we wanted to give people a completely blank Canvas so that they can build whatever because that’s the possibility of our platform. But in practicality, it only confused people because they weren’t sure what Decode. So we basically had to give some examples.

Maciej Nowak [00:03:26]:

Yeah. Yeah. Great. Great. And but not not I think this is not all, because you got investment from Yoast. Right?

Roger Rosweide [00:03:36]:

Right. Yes. Yes.

Maciej Nowak [00:03:37]:

And this is also something I’d like to, touch upon. And because When I was talking with Vaynernt, and let’s start with the

Roger Rosweide [00:03:46]:

name.

Maciej Nowak [00:03:46]:

When I was talking with Vaynernt, I always struggle to I recall What’s the company behind? You know, what’s the name of the company? So this is very interesting, and we we are guilty of this too. When when we started our business 11 years ago, The name was terrible, unwrittenable. Like, you you couldn’t just write it from, from from, either memory or, or just phonetically. And we then rebranded. So, I, I feel your pain and, you are lucky that you made this decision earlier than we did. So, you know, I I wonder how did you, Came up with the decision, what was the process? Because this is very I would say, first of all, risky in a sense that, you have to make a big decision and you don’t know what what will be the reaction. So I I I wonder what was the reasoning behind it.

Roger Rosweide [00:04:39]:

It’s a great question. And and interestingly enough, It ties into your previous comments about Yoast joining us as an investor or rather the founders behind the Yoast SEO plug in because it’s Yoast and his wife, Marika. When we started building our platform, it was essentially a tool for ourselves. And we just wanted to be able to streamline the development of all of our sites and create this serverless platform so that we don’t have to worry about hosting and be able to sell them automatically. And pretty soon and we just refer to it as, WP Cloudspace. That was that was like the internal name for it. And then at some point, we had a lot of reactions from people that we knew in Amsterdam that worked at agencies, basically complaining that we now had this product that was competing with what they were doing because we were able to sell sites for much cheaper and scale up much faster than they would. So that’s when we started turning it into a platform.

Roger Rosweide [00:05:37]:

And WP Cloudspace was just too long of a name. And at the time, our strategy was that we wanted to basically fly under the radar. We wanted to give other agencies the opportunity to claim the platform as it as if it’s Terron. They build the product. We only provide the platform. Our platform in and of itself is not a solution. It’s what you build on the platform That is the solution for the end user. So we didn’t wanna claim that much, visibility.

Roger Rosweide [00:06:07]:

So we came up with WPCS. Right? So WP Cloudspace became WPCS. And, my technical cofounder, Vanon, who you spoke, He was the originator of the entire platform, so we jokingly always said the WPCS stands for Vynon’s personal cloud server. So that’s kind of how yeah. That’s how that’s how we started with the name, at least. And we always knew that it was a sucky name. So we so we so we launched a new, company entity for it. And I was kinda like Anticipating that we would, at some point, change the name.

Roger Rosweide [00:06:44]:

So we called the entity WildCloud Limited. That was the the name of the entity. I was kind of already aware that at some point we were going to change the name. But then we got our 1st investors, and we started scaling, and we kind of forgot that we ever wanted to change our Even though we always knew that people found it confusing and always had had a hard time remembering it. And then we started talking to Joost, And we really wanted to get him on board as an investor simply because he has so much experience. And, then he made it very clear that if he was going to join as an investor, there were a Couple of requirements that we had to meet. And the biggest one was absolutely changing the name.

Maciej Nowak [00:07:21]:

Was it really on his list that the name has to change?

Roger Rosweide [00:07:24]:

Yeah. Absolutely. It was like a, like, a hard requirement. And I was happy. Like, that was the that was the the the thing I’ve always wanted to do, but we were always Kinda just like pushing it to the future because you didn’t wanna we thought that it was maybe a luxury we didn’t have to afford at the moment or hoping at least. And, so now Yoast is on board, and we have to change the name. So we did a survey to find out, how people are using our platform and How they’re describing our platform in their own words. And what we found out is that many of the people actually weren’t aware that, Essentially, it’s a hosting platform.

Roger Rosweide [00:07:59]:

Like, you host the sites. That is what we charge for at the end of the day. And, so So we came up with the idea that we had to put cloud in the name so to make it clear that it’s at least a cloud platform. And then actually, my other cofounder started saying, hey. Look. We should call it WildCloud. And I was so happy because that’s always been our our legal name. So the change is actually a very simple change to make in that sense, but we did actually base it on actual research.

Maciej Nowak [00:08:24]:

I had a sense that it might be tied to to to Yoast investing in in in Europe because From what I’m observing from, again, outside from social media, there is Yoast investment. And with this, there is a huge Change. It’s like, you know, if you look at the timeline of what you are doing on LinkedIn, it is before Yoast and after Yoast. I’m I I don’t want to put too much emphasis or emphasize on this, but now just from outside, it looks like it is like the game has changed Tile. Now you have much different branding, for example, on on your social media. There is a branding actually. And and this is very interesting. Think.

Maciej Nowak [00:09:08]:

And, before we dig it there, I I want to circle circle back still to that name. So why do you keep still by WPCS in the name? Isn’t like, isn’t it like to take it too safe?

Roger Rosweide [00:09:24]:

Well, no. So the only reason we put the buy WPCS now is because it’s in transition period. Obviously, we’ve done many podcasts, blog articles, affiliate deals. And they all list WPCS. And we can’t know for sure, if they’ve changed the name in their articles and whatnot. So therefore, we wanna keep some type of coherent coherence with our Previous name. But in, say, like, 6 months from now, we’ll just drop it completely, and we’ll just go by WildCloud from then on out. Yeah.

Roger Rosweide [00:09:55]:

And, well, To maybe immediately get into the other comment you made about, before Yoast and after Yoast, it is completely true. So Yoast had a couple hard requirements. Right? So one of them being that we had to change the name. The other one was that, Joost is a developer, and he’s very familiar with the architecture that we’ve introduced to WordPress, which is multitenancy. And he understands what we do completely. But his wife, Marika, she’s always been the head of marketing of Yoast, And she is proud of the fact that she is not a developer and she doesn’t understand as much about WordPress as he does. So she’s able to look at it from a more objective perspective, and she can actually talk to more different types of WordPress people without getting too technical. And so she was very clear on the fact that our branding and our positioning and our user experience was very much focused on developers.

Roger Rosweide [00:10:51]:

It was way, way, way too technical. Our plat our website was immediately explaining all the features where we should have been focusing on the benefits and the problem that we’re solving. And, It’s it’s actually a little embarrassing because when we had the agency, we actually specialized in branding. And that’s the one thing that We basically forgot in our own platform, but it’s also because you’re switching from an agency to a product and you have to completely reorganize. So we came up with this branding, and then we kinda just forgot about it. So after they joined us as investors, we started this very intense project of trying to figure out what our branding actually is and how we should actually position ourselves. And that resulted in changing our design, changing our name, changing our website, changing our usage journeys, changing the layouts of the platform itself. And so it basically gave us all these assets that we’re still building and improving upon, all these different content strategy ideas that we’re now executing.

Roger Rosweide [00:11:54]:

And, yeah, you’re you’re right. It completely sparked with Joost and and Marika joining us.

Maciej Nowak [00:11:59]:

When you are thinking about investments, is it Money or is it smart money? You know? Or is it money and smart money and connections? So I wonder I I I I see now this is not only, like, Financial investment, but also knowledge investment in you that you are totally different, you know, company from the Outlook. What else did they bring, with with their with their investment?

Roger Rosweide [00:12:28]:

Well, to, to properly discuss the addition of Yoast and Marika, I kinda have to explain our investment strategy a little better, because we’ve been very strategic. When we started raising capital, we did so at the height Of the bubble. So getting investment was very easy. It’s completely different now. But at the time, we had a very easy, Runoffit. So we started talking to, I think, 20 investors and then also a couple of traditional hosting companies. So the biggest hosting companies you can imagine, we spoke with them. And pretty soon, we realized that we didn’t know the WordPress space as well as we thought.

Roger Rosweide [00:13:13]:

So we weren’t exactly sure which doors would close if we ended up choosing an investor that closes doors, like they take a particular site, And we weren’t sure yet. Like, we just couldn’t make that decision. We hadn’t hadn’t completely seen the entire landscape. So eventually, we Chose initially, German investment, like a VC firm that is founded by Axel Springer, which is like a huge German media company, like the biggest in in Europe really, and Porsche, the car. So those 2 together created a v a VC, and we joined them because they have this internal, they call it I I don’t think they call it an accelerator, but it’s basically like a training program that teaches you exactly the ins and outs of raising funds, Raising Capital. So they won’t exactly help you with building your company, but more understanding how this business works. So that’s what we did. And then afterwards, With that new knowledge, we also, had a Dutch VC come on board.

Roger Rosweide [00:14:19]:

And so both these companies are very industry agnostic, which means that they they’ll invest in anything they think has potential to scale up and become a unicorn. And that’s exactly, at the end of the day, what we actually truly believe in because we truly wanna fortify WordPress and actually make it more robust By opening up this new landscape in which you can actually build stuff. So we believe that the next frontier of WordPress is SaaS development. And so, obviously, for investors, that sounds very attractive Because the SaaS, market is growing by 80 18% or 28% per year, and it’s like a bill it’s like it’s it’s going to increase in in 10 more in 10,000,000,000 more in the next 10 years or something like that. I held had all these numbers, Research, but, obviously, you forget about them. Anyways, so that’s when we started choosing the agnostic investors. And after about 2 years of, you know, playing in the ecosystem and getting to know all these companies, We actually realized that there are a couple of WordPress veterans that if you join with them, it doesn’t close any doors. These guys have a reputation so good.

Roger Rosweide [00:15:28]:

You can basically just go with them, and, you can still work with anybody. And Joost is obviously at the top of that list. He’s, I think, one of the most well loved people in WordPress and, like, an incredibly smart guy. And I was actually already, connected with him, and I spoke with him on a weekly basis way before he ever joined as an investor. And so when we did start that conversation, it was We didn’t have to completely get used to each other or understand what we were doing. I think it’s something that has had crossed his mind already, and he was just waiting for us to reach out. And so it was, completely like a a marriage of, information, experience, and connections. And that’s exactly what we needed at that point.

Maciej Nowak [00:16:12]:

Mhmm. I I love this. I really love this because this is This seems very natural, that this all happened very natural. And I also noticed that, you You somehow started cooperation with GRADE. And, we had, Jakob, on on on the podcaster. One of the very initial, very first guests. So thanks, Jacob for the trust. And when I was speaking with him and then later with Vayner, I I thought these guys should talk, and I never made the connection.

Maciej Nowak [00:16:49]:

You know? I I have never, like, connected you guys. And And when I saw this LinkedIn that you started corporation, I thought this the the this was, meant to be really. So I did did you met on WordCamp? How did it Tart.

Roger Rosweide [00:17:03]:

Yeah. It’s actually it’s it’s a really funny story because, it’s almost like a like a Hollywood love, like like a rom com. We went to WordCamp, Europe in Athens. And one of my cofounders, Seebren, He walked past their booth, but they weren’t there. They had already left. It was Saturday afternoon. And apparently, they had seen my presentation Because I was a speaker. But at the moment, they couldn’t reach out to me and talk to me directly.

Roger Rosweide [00:17:34]:

So both of us were aware of each other, But we didn’t quite understand what we were doing, but they listened to my speech. And if you talk to Mark, the CEO of Great, He has this post on LinkedIn where he said, the moment he heard me speak, he was like, he had the idea that we were kindred spirits. Like, he calls it 2 sides of the same metal. And it’s completely true. Like, the problems we solve are exactly in the same logic. We just solve different problems for different areas of WordPress, But they interlock, like, perfectly. Like, it’s just a perfect puzzle that’s being laid. And I can I can give you an example? For example, in the in the context of Black Friday, how we’re how we’re working together right now.

Roger Rosweide [00:18:17]:

But At the time, yeah, we couldn’t really make a connection. So eventually, Sebring reached out to them as they were probably, like, typing up a message to us as well. And from there, we started discussing, an integration. And having integration partnerships is something that we truly believe in because I think that the WordPress ecosystem is Strong because we are a chain, and we together can be something great. And, in and of itself, 1 single party shouldn’t really be solving All the problems, I believe. But this has been by far the fastest integration that we’ve built. It took us only a couple of weeks, and it works Flawlessly.

Maciej Nowak [00:18:57]:

Is this only integration or is it more because It it wasn’t very clear from the, like, announcement. Is it just technical integration? Right?

Roger Rosweide [00:19:07]:

So, for those people listening and and who are thinking what hell is wild cloud and what the hell is great. So wild cloud is essentially a hosting platform where all the sites that you spin up share the same code base. And so it’s hosted on a on a cloud platform, which is multi tenant. And it basically means that your individual websites are isolated and they can scale up independently Without you having to worry about server stuff, but you can still centrally maintain and improve all your sites as one. And you can do this on a code level. So on our websites, the databases are separate. And that is so that you don’t accidentally overwrite any of the changes That your customers might have made, but you centralize the code. Right? GRADE does exactly the same thing, but on a database level.

Roger Rosweide [00:19:59]:

So they leave alone the code. They don’t do hosting, but you can connect multiple sites and Push content to different modules on different sites. And so you can imagine that this works really well if, for example, you have, a franchise or a chain of restaurants, or if you have multiple blog websites where you basically wanna swap out certain footers or content modules. And, it is an integration in a sense that on our platform, if you spin up sites that have grade As the foundation, the sites automatically connect. And we do this via an integration where we swap out PHP constants. And so the sites are always immediately connected to the master site, which means from the master site, you can send out different code changes. And so to put this in, in an actual scenario, we’ve launched a website called wpdealhub.com. And it’s basically a a co promotion for Black Friday.

Roger Rosweide [00:21:00]:

So currently, we have 20 WordPress product companies. And you basically fill out a form where you give us the details of your Black Friday deal. And then afterwards, we create an individual website Where all the deals for all the companies are listed. But this individual website, you have your own branding, your own design. You can put up your own logo, but the only thing you can change is the plugins, the theme files, so the actual theme that’s been chosen, and the content. So So you can design it in your in your in your font and your colors and whatnot, but you can’t change the content because we centrally Add deals to all the sites at the same time whenever a new deal comes comes in. And so the the the goal of this co promotion is that basically All the deal partners get their own link and it could be your own domain link. So it could be deals.osomestudio.com, for example.

Roger Rosweide [00:21:58]:

And we control basically all the deals that are listed. And so, therefore, we can immediately add more deals. You just, share your link with, your audience. And then all the other partners will do the same thing with their link promoting you in the process. And so the reason why this works so well is because we can immediately spin up news sites as people make an entry and then also update all the deals as one. And therefore, I can just do it in, like, 2 minutes and, and control 20 sites that we have right now, and we’re gonna have more. So, Again, it’s like a technical integration, but it’s also a way of thinking. And that is part of the entire partnership.

Maciej Nowak [00:22:38]:

Yeah. Great. And, great. And great is written with d at the end. So it’s like an awesome awesome studio written OSOM, and they are a great g r e y d. And and I love their name too. Yeah. And that that’s that’s a great example.

Maciej Nowak [00:22:57]:

And, I I also wonder because it seems like these partnerships are Flourishing only recently. Again, something that I have a feeling again, like, you switched gears recently. So before I don’t know if this like, the capital that, let you do this or you started to, like, Have a movement like a tempo you started instead of walking, you are now running the this much is happening. So I wonder if there are any, any, like, Insta InstaWP. Again, a recent integration. Do I get this right?

Roger Rosweide [00:23:35]:

Yeah. True. True. We Just announced this integration last soft launch last week to our own Internal Network and then actually this week to the entire, like, ecosystem. But you’re right. I think We definitely started running in the summer. And it’s not that much to do with Yoast, I think. It’s just that we really started to get the hang of it.

Roger Rosweide [00:24:06]:

And maybe it’s also Yoast in the sense that Him joining as an investor gave us a huge confidence boost. And we can now really quickly iterate on ideas Because every time we have an idea, we can just ask his advice, and then immediately we know if we’re moving in the right direction or not. So I wouldn’t say that now he’s, like, for some reason, a sort of mastermind, controlling what we do, But it’s like super helpful to have mentors who can just kinda, be your sparring partner as you come up with your own ideas. At the same time, last year, we were already completely scalable, but there were a couple of core features that we really wanted to get right. For example, the, the API that we had, people could still could use it, but we didn’t have our own storefront that people could use to sell sites automatically. We were, we had different data centers all over the globe, but we didn’t have a central Hub, where we could control all the Kubernetes clusters and send them over to different data centers. So having had So working on that complete foundation and and having that ready was just before the summer, and then we just, like, Went for it. And you can see it in our growth numbers as well.

Roger Rosweide [00:25:21]:

They doubled. Our conversion rates also doubled. And, That’s yeah. It’s been it’s been going quite well so far.

Maciej Nowak [00:25:30]:

Yeah. Fingers crossed to to keep their momentum because this is, like, the pleasure to to to watch, Especially because, you know, I’m referring all the time to, like, previous time because, you know, we We we talked to Viant. And for me, it’s a situation in which I can observe, you know, a growing company, growing startup from from the very beginning. So I see what you did a year ago, because I remember and see how this develops as even something like a case study. You know, for me, it’s like observing A case study being created very, very slowly, you know, over the months, but it’s a growing growing process. So this is like very interesting for me to, To observe this, how how we are developing in which direction and also, you know, finishing Finishing the, the topic of investments, I wonder because from again, from my my personal perspective, There aren’t many first first of all, a bigger big organizations in WordPress space apart from a couple of agencies, just like a handful of agencies and and maybe a couple of, WordPress companies like, you know, Automotive, for example, and and and Automattic, obviously. There is not many big organizations and also there is or I don’t see this, Many investments in the space. Like, it’s not popular concept, to have an investor or or, like a an go ongoing partner, that would help you or or or merging forces.

Maciej Nowak [00:27:09]:

It’s rare. Whereas in other, let’s say, SaaS areas, it’s it’s very common. It’s like, the way like, default way to go. And I’m not judging which one is better, but making an observation. And I’m curious about your opinion Why this is the case, and if it is the case in your opinion?

Roger Rosweide [00:27:31]:

I I completely feel that this is the case. And I should say that, there’s a very clear explanation for it. And I’m trying to choose my words a little careful, because I don’t wanna come on.

Maciej Nowak [00:27:47]:

Offend not to offend anyone. Or or

Roger Rosweide [00:27:50]:

Yeah. Well or or because no. I wanna, like, preemptively state that we started building our platform as a way to scratch our own itch. And I think that’s how most successful products or Just most businesses, you know, come about. And

Maciej Nowak [00:28:09]:

Can you explain what do you mean by this?

Roger Rosweide [00:28:11]:

So We at we at some point, we had, like, tens of, websites for gyms and restaurants. Right? So let’s say, like, I I don’t know how many would they were, but let’s say we had 20 websites for our restaurants. And what we noticed is that the 1st website we ever made for a restaurant was not the same code stack as we did for the 20th site. And so, obviously, you sell your sites or rather your you sell your customers. You sell them maintenance. But if you develop your skills, and website number 20 is a much more elegant representation of Your skill set, not website number 1 is never going to live up to that because your customers aren’t paying for that anymore. So So you’re not gonna update those sites to reflect your latest, style and your latest, qualities. And that that’s that’s actually a problem because if you wanna individually manage all those sites, then you always have to kinda think back to okay.

Roger Rosweide [00:29:11]:

So what did I do for the 1st website And for the 2nd or for the 3rd, what are the exceptions? What are the edge cases? If I update this plug in, will it destroy anything from my sites? It’s not straightforward. Right? So developing 20 sites is not that hard. But if you wanna continuously improve them, Then you have to dedicate individual hours to individual projects. And that for us is like a real pain in the ass. Like, you’re basically just Thinking in the in the past, and you’re hating what you did back then because it was old work. So it’s never good. Right? You’re never satisfied. But also you don’t have the time to then bring them up to the same level.

Roger Rosweide [00:29:49]:

So we wanted to have a platform where we could basically Let our existing customers benefit from everything that we did while we were improving ourselves. And we wanted to do that For the same price as they were paying for maintenance. And so the answer that we came up came up with is multi tenant WordPress. Because multi tenant WordPress means you share the same code base for all of your sites. So if I share a single code base and I improve upon it, then all my customers benefit. And this is basically the SaaS model. Right? If I sell Notion I’m looking at my Notion, app right now, to customer number 1 and then to customer number 1,000, they all share the same code base. So the people over at Notion, they improve the product, and they roll out new features to all the customers at Same time.

Roger Rosweide [00:30:37]:

We have the same methodology, and it’s never been done before. But just that it’s never been done before doesn’t mean that it’s automatically going to be A super successful co company with a high potential of scalability, therefore, attracting a lot of investors. In order to be attractive to investors, you have to make it feasible that you can become like this Incredible multiplier, in in revenue. And that only works if your total addressable market is large enough. And so we just happened to stumble upon a platform Where the total addressable market is that big. Because at the end of the day, we have a platform where every agency in the entire world Can build a website as a service for their niche. They can all the agencies that we speak to can adopt a website as a service model. That’s our luck, you could say, because we didn’t do that on purpose.

Roger Rosweide [00:31:40]:

But if you, for example, make an add on for WooCommerce That lets you streamline the checkout page, but only for particular, b to b products that work in the electrical space. I mean, these these plug ins exist. Right? Then an investor is not Quickly going to invest in that because the total addressable market is is way smaller. That’s not to say that your company is, You know, doomed to never have that type of investor success. It just means that you have to expand your strategy, and you have to make it very clear While you’re starting with this product and the next, there’s going to be another bigger product, and then there’s going to be a bigger product. And this is going to have this over encompassing Strategy. If we look at, instead of WP, for example, this started out as a simple service where you could quickly launch A site that you had been building, just to test stuff. And I I can I’m happy to count Vikas as one of my close friends, so I know how he developed his thinking.

Roger Rosweide [00:32:46]:

And so that became a platform where you could demo sites if you were a product company, and that became a platform where you could develop those sites very easily, and that became a platform where you could connect those demo sites to an existing hosting company where they could live permanently. So the vision has always been expanding. And this has been sort of loosely In his mind from the get go, not completely because, obviously, you change your mind as you grow, as you learn new stuff. But he’s a visionary, and this has always been, like, generally his idea. So you can start small, but the vision has to be grand in order to really attract those, institutional investors. And that is, I think, Quite the opposite of how the WordPress ecosystem has thought so far because there are a lot of really smart people that are self working on the WordPress project. But inherently to that mindset is not necessarily a very, Like, monetary, product driven, expansive, like, SaaS mindset. That’s just not how WordPress has developed.

Roger Rosweide [00:34:05]:

And fortunately so, because now we have this really vibrant, strong WordPress open source community. But if we wanna compete with Shopify and Wix and Squarespace, it’s time to adjust our mindset and start thinking along those lines as well. It doesn’t have to, like, overtake each other, but I think there should be a healthy balance between the open source community and the, Yeah. The people were also trying to grow the ecosystem because currently, it’s not really growing.

Maciej Nowak [00:34:39]:

I think this is a bit of a paradox that you have such a huge space, which is WordPress, you know, 40% of of websites out there. And and at the same time, it’s made by 1,000,000, you know, of contributors in a sense that, you know, developers inside agencies not only, you know, open source contributors, but, you know, Every developer, every freelancer, every plugin builder is contributing to the, bigger WordPress ecosystem. And yet, It’s a model in which there are millions of tiny, like like, plankton players, individual contributors without big organizations. So it’s like it’s so granular that it From this dust, there are not many like stars born. You know what I mean? These should converge into to bigger organizations, you know, by the force of of gravity of of of attraction, and it is not. So it’s like, you know, it’s like a ant colony building something Huge, but with tiny tiny contributions like those grains on grains of of of sand. This is just as it is, But I’m I’m, like, flabbergasted that this is not, concentrating. You know? That that there is, like, very Limited number of bigger organizations and bigger means like 200 people.

Maciej Nowak [00:36:07]:

This is in WordPress, this is like enormous, you know, Biggest, like, I know. In other companies, 200 people is not not so big. It’s like it’s medium to small even it’s on on on the bring between small and medium companies. So it’s like a totally different model of operating in WordPress and anywhere else. It’s like if you enter WordPress, you are deciding to be to be tiny. Right? It’s like this this is my impression of being inside workspace for for a couple of years now. And, you know, I I I am curious why this is the case.

Roger Rosweide [00:36:46]:

Well, one of the reas one of the reason, I think, is The WordPress project has been quite slow in bringing a well working Gutenberg to market. It’s like, it’s like when we introduce calculators to children’s math. Right? We were afraid that children would no longer children would no longer be able to do, like, easy calculations. But in practice, the math classes actually became more complex because they don’t have to do the easy stuff anymore. So if we’re all still working on products that help us post better blogs, Then the ecosystem in and of itself is not really progressing at a rapid pace. Like, at the end of the day, what we wanna do is we wanna build more complex, More performant websites. We wanna expand the number of use cases, which is also why we’re so much pushing towards, SaaS applications alongside websites. But if we’re all competing to be the best theme Or the best page builder, then there’s really not much progression.

Roger Rosweide [00:37:58]:

Fortunately, now, Gutenberg is basically the calculator for us all. Like, as the The functionalities of Gutenberg are are expanding. It’s pushing to those companies that are basically threatened by it. And this this is definitely, an an existential problem for many WordPress companies, but at the same time, it also raises the bar. Like, you now have to do more and more complex stuff. And I see this up as an opportunity because now we don’t have to do as much anymore to put some Starting value in inside of your WordPress installation. Because I think that’s that’s a big problem that I think has, halted many WordPress projects is you have the the famous 5 minute install, which is way too long. And then you have an empty WordPress installation where you Still have to install all of your plug ins, so you have to build some pages, and you have to select your theme, and then you haven’t even talked about the performance, plug ins or the security stuff.

Roger Rosweide [00:38:55]:

And And so, basically, what you wanna do is you wanna have all of that as the default and then build from there. And, Pantheon, the CTO of Pantheon, I had a conversation with him the other day. And he they they have this great mission statement, and they’re all about speed of execution. And I think in our industry, and I’m not just talking WordPress. I’m not talking CMS, but I’m talking the website builder platform. So, again, I’m talking Shopify. I’m also talking Bubble, where you can build, SaaS applications. What what they excel at is introducing new features that enable people to build Better Stuff Faster.

Roger Rosweide [00:39:34]:

And, I think WordPress is picking up steam, and I think the vision is now finally Becoming clear and the iterations are going faster and faster, but this has been a struggle for the longest time. And, I’m I’m actually glad to see what’s happening

Maciej Nowak [00:39:53]:

right now. Do you have an opinion about why this is the case? That this is only a recent development in terms of vision or pressure to ship things faster. What changed in your opinion?

Roger Rosweide [00:40:12]:

Honestly, I think it’s I think it’s money. I think money started becoming a bigger issue. A couple of people made a big exit, and they now have cash. So they’re putting it back into the ecosystem. But also there was this trend of hosting companies buying product companies, which I think in and of itself is a pretty bad idea because you’re cannibalizing on your own marketing channels. So if a hosting company buys A plug in, for example, then other hosting companies are no longer going to promote that plug in. So it’s not necessarily a a a good development for the for the ecosystem overall. But it also

Maciej Nowak [00:40:54]:

can I can I jump in? So is this a situation in which to which you referred when talking about choosing investor, like, carefully in order to avoid closing the doors.

Roger Rosweide [00:41:05]:

Absolutely. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. And so, The the the incentive for hosting companies to buy product companies is pretty obvious. Hosting companies in and of itself aren’t very innovative. They don’t nest they don’t commonly have, product teams. They don’t build new stuff.

Roger Rosweide [00:41:25]:

They only buy new stuff. So they just buy users by buying plug in companies, basically, And that’s how they try to get more revenue. And that’s not really that’s not contribution. Right? So in order to, I think, combat that And to have a more healthy balance where the ecosystem is actually innovative again, I think people just started to pick up steam. Because the last thing you want is a hosting company with a lot of money, but with very few ideas buying all the plug ins, And then nothing’s really happening anymore. It’s kinda just, puts it on on a in a in a in a Mexican standoff, you could say.

Maciej Nowak [00:42:04]:

Okay. That that’s very interesting. That’s very interesting. And, we we we we referred, in fact, to, you know, You’re picking investors, and this touches on, let’s say, making decisions. And I wonder what are, you know, like, flops in in in in in white cloud in terms of, I don’t know, initiatives, for example, for mark marketing initiatives because you mentioned this on your LinkedIn, and I’d like to, like, to it because this was very interesting because you also shared numbers. And this is not very common to share numbers of exact like, exact numbers of exact losses over bad ideas. And, would you like to, like, go over it, for our listeners?

Roger Rosweide [00:42:53]:

Yeah. Absolutely. Let’s do it. Actually, let me pull this up because, I don’t remember the order in which I posted it. And I’m happy to, to provide more details because And as I’m looking for it, let me let me provide some additional context. I think, And I and I’m I’m guilty of this as well. Like, it’s very easy to only share the wins. And, I was actually listening to a podcast by Steven Bartlett, who is, who does a podcast called Diary of a of a CEO.

Roger Rosweide [00:43:31]:

And he’s an English, investor and, and business, founder. He’s very successful. And, they were talking about multiple statements by big corporations like Amazon and Spotify and, and Netflix as well, where they where the owners or the CEOs of the companies basically got upset if too many things went right because What they excel at is the speed at which they feel. So they wanna feel as much as they can and then quickly, bounce back from it because it’s actually the failures that bring you the most, insights. And,

Maciej Nowak [00:44:11]:

I think

Roger Rosweide [00:44:11]:

that’s Something that a lot of people try to rather, it looks like they’re overlooking how how much value you can get from I think it’s this one. We made 3 wrong investments. I think it’s very important to share the failures because, it has been the personal dramas in my life that has that have made me a more empathetic human being. And I think it’s the business failures that have made me a more, a more balanced, more experienced in in entrepreneur. I was I’m actually following a course right now to put simple concepts into simple rather to put complex concepts into simple visuals. And I’ve been trying to Find a visual that I can easily draw to showcase how my journey as an entrepreneur, where we have a company that’s taking a lot of risk, It’s not because I am in and of it’s of of myself an impulsive risk taker. I actually have a very, balanced, Grounded life. Like, I wake up at 6 in the morning.

Roger Rosweide [00:45:15]:

I go to the gym. I’ve had a girlfriend for 7 years. I save a lot of my money even though I don’t I give myself or give ourselves a lot of, salary. Like, you try to minimize the risks in many areas in your life so that you can actually take risks in other areas. And I think it’s the same with your mistakes. Like, you have to not be afraid to make, to make mistakes as long as you can actually make the mistakes and bounce back from them.

Maciej Nowak [00:45:39]:

I like it. I I really like it. I like it. And to your point, I have a a rolling joke with my one of my friends. This is a lawyer and have a couple of employees that All of those mistakes is just yet just another class in the, university of business. You know, it’s it’s like life course. And if with every mistake, with every drama you learn and you try to avoid next mistake, of this kind, but there is always a mistake around the corner waiting for you to take that corner.

Roger Rosweide [00:46:11]:

Absolutely, man. And on that on that note, there’s definitely, A pattern in my mistakes, and that is being impatient. Like, you have to, you know, a lot a lot of business gurus will talk about consistency being the key to success, and I completely believe that. But in order to be consistent, you have to cultivate patience. And that that’s not necessarily one of my strengths. It’s I’m not inherently patient, or or Intrinsically Patient. And so if I look at the the 3 investments that costed us $50,000, so the first one is Hiring an SDR agency to do cold sales. And, obviously, they do cold sales on your ideal customer profile.

Roger Rosweide [00:47:00]:

But the moment we hired them, we only did our 1st $1,000 in recurring revenue. So you can imagine that you have No idea who your ICP is at that point. But us being impatient, we had this general idea, And general idea resulted in 5 different ICPs that we gave them as a briefing. I mean, we should’ve we should’ve have known.

Maciej Nowak [00:47:23]:

Only? Only 5? And this was after short listing them. Right?

Roger Rosweide [00:47:32]:

I think we started with, like, twelve or something. It’s so silly if you think about that.

Maciej Nowak [00:47:36]:

That’s moderate still. Oh, I’m not joking anymore. I I I’m not putting finger into that wound anymore.

Roger Rosweide [00:47:45]:

And so the second1 was scaling up our paid ads. So and this is interesting because, Mark, the CEO of Great commented on this post as well, saying that they had a similar problem. So Sieben and I, we are the commercial cofounders of the company, and, our marketing agency has always been good at doing paid ads. And this is like Our our comfort zone. So Siprant and I started making a lot of ads, and we were always very proud of our cost per lead And our trial, two trial conversion rate, and we were always, like, bragging about it. And then after a couple months, we realized that we weren’t converting those people to customers. Merse. And there were a couple of reasons for it.

Roger Rosweide [00:48:28]:

First off, we had a 30 day free trial, which is insanely long if you think about it. Like, It’s just insane, but we had it for 30 days. And then we had a usage based pricing model, which means that you only get your 1st invoice 30 days after you start paying because we calculated after the usage of the month. So it meant that 60 days after your initial sign up, Did we know whether you became a customer or not? So it took us 2 months to, take learnings from every ad campaign we had. So The 1st 2 months, you’re like, okay. Well, this is probably fine. Let’s do a little tweaking here and there. And then another 2 months go by.

Roger Rosweide [00:49:09]:

You’re like, okay. Well, Not really sure, but let’s do this here and then do another tweak. And so this is how 6 months go by where you basically have 3 iteration moments Before you realize that you’re overspending on ads and you’re underperforming on your top of, bottom of funnel. And so this is when we realized that We had to get complete control over the funnel. So we brought our free trial from 30 days to 7 days, and then you pay for your Service fee at the end of 7 days, which is $5 per month, it’s nothing. But for us, it provides Insight into whether or not you’re committed to becoming a customer or not. So for for a customer, it’s almost not an investment at all. But for us, it is huge value in Deciding whether or not we’re doing the right things.

Roger Rosweide [00:49:58]:

So we basically brought our delta for learning from from 60 days back to 7 days. So now we can actually iterate on campaigns every week. And, that’s something that we introduced when we changed our pricing, and it’s been insane. But yeah. I mean, at during that time, we wasted 25 k on ads, basically. And then finally

Maciej Nowak [00:50:22]:

Can I comment on it? Because you mentioned that you your your your time to, let’s say, knowledge time to knowledge, let’s call it time, TTK, of running these ads for 60 days. And, this is this is for the ads only, but I’m also Thinking about cash flow where, customers starts at day 0 and you are, getting money at, day 6 sixty. And this is very, very long. And, this is yet another problem, not from marketing perspective because this you Already mentioned, but from, let’s say, running a business, if you are extending your, the time before you will receive the money as Pro.

Roger Rosweide [00:51:06]:

Absolutely, man. Yeah. That’s a very clear, that’s a very, good addition to the to one of the problems that we identified. We were basically, we we basically realized that we were limiting our own growth because we were attracting the users. We were onboarding them. We were making them successful. And then we artificially made them pay later. And there was no need for it.

Roger Rosweide [00:51:35]:

It was basically our own, You could say lack of self confidence. Like we wanted to show the wealth, the, the value of our platform so badly That we were willing to shoot ourselves in the, in the legs in the process. And when we found out that our retention was, 96%. So our, like, churn was lower than 4% Or sometimes 4% depending on the month, obviously. But, like, on average, 4%. And that hosting like, normal hosting companies have 40% churn in the 1st month alone. So they have this insane churn rate. And we didn’t know that at the beginning because we didn’t identify as hosting companies, so we didn’t necessarily compare ourselves.

Roger Rosweide [00:52:25]:

We didn’t benchmark with other hosting companies. And, As you grow and you start talking to hosting companies, you identify their problems. You’re like, hey. Fuck. We’re doing something totally different, and it’s actually working. And when we did notice that we were having this great retention, that’s when we knew that we could definitely lower the free trial and and do these things differently. But this is something you grow into and you build more confidence as you as you learn. And it’s not something that I mean, obviously, I Lie in bed and I ask myself, why didn’t we come up with this stuff sooner, all the time.

Roger Rosweide [00:52:57]:

But at the end of the day, it’s just

Maciej Nowak [00:52:58]:

Really? Yeah. Aren’t aren’t you thinking that, you know, Okay. This is very costly, but very important lesson because, you know, you you could learn this faster, but, you know, At the end of the day, you learn that that stuff or, you know, during that process, because I’m I’m I’m I have a feeling that this is a more complex one that, only running the ads because previously you had that agency running for leads, with, 5, personas. I think you augmented this with running ads for 5 personas too, because why not? So so this is a more complex problem that’s okay. We just run ads. And this was, too long longer process, for Getting the information back then, because in the meantime, you started talking with hosting companies. Otherwise, you wouldn’t, It I’m I’m like, it’s it’s like talking about something that never happened, but you could have never learned about, you know, You’d never been you could have never benchmarked yourself against hosting companies. So, even though you count it as a failure and this is this is not a great success, Says there is a huge wisdom gained by the organization from doing that exercise, in my opinion.

Roger Rosweide [00:54:13]:

Well, I mean, you’re totally right. And maybe this is the moment where I explained that Dutch people have a, like, a very Different way of, having this inner but also outer dialogue. Dutch people are known for being very direct, Sometimes even harsh without intending it that personal or that, serious. But they like, Dutch people like to be, very clear on what has happened because we all wanna be on the same page. We all wanna be honest. We don’t necessarily want to hurt feelings, but definitely they don’t take precedent over the results. So when I say that, I often think to myself, I wish I had learned this sooner. I don’t mean that I’m beating myself up up for it.

Roger Rosweide [00:54:57]:

It doesn’t like keep me awake at night or I don’t hate myself for it. But One of the biggest things that I’ve learned is that, if you’re building a company that is doing something unique, There are a 1000000 ways of doing it wrong and there’s only a couple of ways to do it right. And if something is not working, just Like, don’t let it fester. Don’t, just let it be. Don’t assume that other people will take action. Immediately put it out there. Discuss it even if you then conclude generally that it’s still a good idea to pursue the strategy for a little longer, but don’t, like, just, gaslight it, or don’t don’t, like, actually say what it is. And Naming it what it is, meaning it is a failure.

Roger Rosweide [00:55:47]:

It is something that we have to learn from. Don’t Try to save or spare each other’s feelings for it, for me, is is challenging because you kinda have to always, obviously, try to navigate the communication and the balance and the and the in in a and the group dynamics, But being clear on it that it’s a failure and not, you know, something that we’ve obviously, you learn from it, but you don’t have to beat yourself up for it. I think that’s important. So that’s what I meant with that.

Maciej Nowak [00:56:21]:

Yeah. And you you mentioned that, one right way might million wrong ways. And this is something similar to what One famous person has written that there there are, there’s one model for a happy family, and and I think It was like every, unhappy families unhappiness on in their own way, but happy families happy The way the happy families are. You know, I I I totally ruined it, but, you know, this is, it is very, very deep. And and And and what you said is also very interesting, about these failures. And I wonder what is the number, failure number 3, because there there were 3 mentioned.

Roger Rosweide [00:57:09]:

Right. And I think this goes back to, on the one hand, being impatient and on the other hand, lacking self confidence. So the failure number 3 was hiring a consultant to devise a strategy for the wrong audience. So obviously, The keyword here is consultant and wrong audience because we hadn’t pinpointed our ideal profile ideal customer profile yet. And also we felt like we needed a consultant to tell us what to do. And I think this also goes back to, calling out failures and then Making a conscious decision to learn from them and not to fester in them and let them overtake you. I think actually Identifying failures makes you more resilient, but only if you identify it as a failure, because we actually realized that we know much more about the industry than we thought. We actually have a pretty clear vision and a pretty clear opinion.

Roger Rosweide [00:58:03]:

And even though we’re relatively new to the ecosystem, we do bring a wealth of experience from other areas that we’re now incorporating into the WordPress, field. And so, it cost us 10 k. We ended up doing nothing for it. It was a market we didn’t actually wanna be in. And It, I mean, it’s, again, it’s a, it’s a, it’s a lesson that costs you 10 k and then, you know, for a fact how you wanna spend the rest of your money or new money that comes in. But, I think that’s what I think that maybe was the moment where we started believing in our own strength more because we Saw the vision and we saw the strategy, and we’re like, we could have come up with that ourselves or better.

Maciej Nowak [00:58:50]:

Over the weekend.

Roger Rosweide [00:58:51]:

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it was like, yeah. Fine. So no. That was, it was all of them were like, I’m happy we made the mistakes, and we’re still here, so That’s why I’m happy to tell the mistakes. If they killed us, maybe I would have seen it differently. But then I would have taken it to the next venture or to whatever was happening next.

Maciej Nowak [00:59:12]:

Mhmm. I I I really like it. And are there in chronological order? 1, 2, 3?

Roger Rosweide [00:59:20]:

It’s a good question. Yeah. I think the SDR agency was actually the first thing we did. Then we started scaling up ads, and, I think we were still doing that when we hired a consultant, so those were pretty much concurrent.

Maciej Nowak [00:59:35]:

Can I venture a a diagnosis?

Roger Rosweide [00:59:38]:

Yeah. Please.

Maciej Nowak [00:59:39]:

From from yeah. So my diagnosis, you’re listening to it, is that you started with the agency that approached you, and you bought them, because They promised you a pile of gold because they have this number of successful, you know, executions for other agencies. Then they failed because you by the 5, personas. So you thought you will do a better job because you already did a better job on on other places. It turned out it’s not the case because, of the long process. And so maybe we’ll hire a consultant that will help us Pinpoint what we want to do for for who we want to sell with with the right persona. And it was a flop because you know them, Your persona, because you are, like, immersed in this sector very well. So it it was a flaw because that External consultant didn’t have the insights you had.

Maciej Nowak [01:00:31]:

So is my, you know, bold, diagnosis To some extent, correct?

Roger Rosweide [01:00:39]:

Sort of. I think, the SDR agency we hired We hired the SDR agency because, I had known them for quite a while. And, I know that they provide great work. It’s just that we weren’t ready for them, not the other way around. So I don’t think we I don’t think we were promised Gold. We like, we promised ourselves gold. We we were sure that they were going to enable, the the the valuable conversations. But if you ask an SDR agency to get you calls and you don’t even know exactly what the value is, because obviously, you know your own value.

Roger Rosweide [01:01:17]:

You know what has worked for your agency, but then there’s this translation that needs to be made between what you find valuable and how they wanna be approached. And, obviously, this is the whole problem of positioning in general. We have multiple different customers using our platform, and they all wanna be spoken to in a different way. And obviously, at some point, you find out which audience is the largest And you pinpoint that particular language. But at the moment, we didn’t know that. And, but at the same time, we started scaling up the ads. And we thought that the results of the SER would feed the inspiration for the different ads, but it turned be but because we could only iterate on those ads every 2 months. We basically couldn’t iterate on those ads.

Roger Rosweide [01:02:01]:

And, the consultant Was basically for a completely different market, but we just Let ourselves be sold to. In that particular instance, we were just suckers. As you like, we were just basically got convinced, that that person knew something that we couldn’t know.

Maciej Nowak [01:02:21]:

Mhmm.

Roger Rosweide [01:02:22]:

But, it turned out not to be the case.

Maciej Nowak [01:02:25]:

Mhmm. I I spoke with 1 person who who has a theory. He he started a couple of software, software development businesses and sold them. And he has a theory that mark in in technical organizations, Marketing should be led by the engineering. So that the insights for the marketing teams should be driven by the insights that engineering teams are, from the problems they are solving. And this should saturate the marketing and also that the even even salespeople should be Very, very technical because they understand these problems. And I’m not saying this is the case for you, but rather it, rings a bell that you are technical guys, you know, technical organization. And the cases should be technical, But put in a way that, you know, they are easy to consume by nontechnical people.

Maciej Nowak [01:03:28]:

But in fact, they are technical. But the role of the marketing is to rough the edges in order for the marketing case study or mark marketing communication is digestible by nontechnical people for the technical reason or for the technical problem.

Roger Rosweide [01:03:45]:

I I completely agree with you. And we have, implemented almost everything of this into our own organization with a few exceptions. And that and that’s only because our product works in a different way slightly, But the overall logic applies. By that, I mean, in our case, it is, required that our marketers are at least at the same level of sophistication as our users. And we discovered that the people using our platform often aren’t as technical as our own engineers. And that’s because the platform that we’ve built is very complex, but we expose it in a very simple way. So we enhance The the capabilities of an agency by giving them something so that they don’t have to hire somebody for it. And so in our case, the engineers don’t have to drive marketing, but it’s that marketing has to completely understand what problems the agencies have and what they’re trying to fix with our platform, which they would otherwise do by simply Throwing bodies at the problem, and these would be very expensive bodies.

Roger Rosweide [01:04:56]:

So that’s that’s for starters. But then another thing that we actually did notice is that in our case with sales, It is actually the engineers who close the most deals. Because in our case, we have multiple touch points when we do, And like an like a like an actual live sale because we have a product led growth model where people just sign up and onboard themselves. But we also do white glove onboarding for larger customers or people that want more hand holding. And in this case, usually, they start speaking to somebody who doesn’t necessarily have All the knowledge, but can at least identify and empathize with the problem. And then it’s actually the engineer that closes the deal because they can, Like, completely strip the problem down to its bare essentials, already provide a framework for the solution in the first conversation, And then just start with the project. And, when we not when we identified that, I call it the Cristiano Ronaldo, model Because Cristiano Ronaldo is somebody who does not have to do anything for the entire batch, but the moment you give him the ball, he scores. As opposed to Messi.

Roger Rosweide [01:06:05]:

Messi is organizing the attack. He is also defending when necessary. He’s, like, all over the field. So you’ve got these 2 great, football players. You’ve got these 2 great strikers. They’re also compared with each other. But the difference with Cristiano Ronaldo is that you involve him at the end Of the of the process, and that’s where our engineers come into play. They we need them to to basically score the goals, but we’ll set up the attack.

Roger Rosweide [01:06:31]:

And, when we identified that, everything in our organization became more smooth.

Maciej Nowak [01:06:36]:

With such sophisticated product as you have, It would be very difficult for, let’s say, layperson to explain all of the value with particular customer, without background knowledge on how this is all working because of a lot of stuff that is going At Hoc during such conversation corner cases that has to be that have to be answered, on the fly. And It would mean for them to ramp up with their knowledge, it would mean they would have to have a couple of months of, I don’t know, workshops or or or The learning curve is very steep and you have sophisticated product. It’s not a plug in for sending mass emails or or or or or forms. So this is different different story. I I I really like your example. Yeah. Alright. Roger, thank you very much for conversation.

Maciej Nowak [01:07:34]:

This was this was a pleasure to, to know what What has happened over the years and also dig into, you know, different, you know, I would call it like, entrepreneur, entrepreneur path or route, to building product. Thank you very much again. All the best, and I keep fingers crossed for your growth, of WildCloud.

Roger Rosweide [01:08:02]:

I I really enjoyed having, being on the podcast. Thanks for having me on. And, thanks for for for listening, everybody.

Lector [01:08:10]:

If you like what you’ve just heard, don’t forget to subscribe for more episodes. On the other hand, if you’ve got a question we haven’t answered yet, feel free to reach out to us directly. Just go to osomstudio.com/contact. Thanks for listening, and see you in the next episode of the Osom to Know podcast.

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