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In this episode, our host Maciej Nowak delves into the world of website building and tech marketing strategies. Joined by special guest Cheryl Salazar, they explore the challenges faced by B2B tech companies in effectively communicating their value to customers through their websites. From cluttered website content to the impact of algorithm marketing, they address the need for concise and customer-facing messaging. Join us as we uncover insights on website structure, hidden pricing, and user experience in the SaaS world. Stay tuned for a thought-provoking discussion on the evolving landscape of tech marketing and web design!
Before joining The Partner Marketing Group, Cheryl led many important initiatives during her 12-year tenure with Microsoft and the channel in South Africa and the United States. She played key roles in developing and supporting numerous software programs including Microsoft Office, Windows for Workgroups, Direct Access Action Pack and the Microsoft Dynamics ERP suite. She also managed lead generation for Microsoft Public Sector and has served as product manager and systems engineer for technology distributors, ISVs and systems integrators. As a senior consultant for The Partner Marketing Group, Cheryl brings clients a wealth of knowledge in technology and business development, specializing in helping partners who implement and resell ERP, CRM, Business Intelligence, Managed Services and Platform Solutions from Microsoft, Intel, Epicor, NetSuite, Acumatica, Infor, Sage and Sage Intacct. Cheryl earned her Bachelor of Education degree from the University of Witwatersrand, South Africa. This busy mom to two daughters is also an accredited Safari Guide.
Maciej Nowak [00:00:00]:
Hello, everyone. My name is Maciej Nowak, and welcome to the Osom To Know podcast where we discuss all things related to building your website. In this episode, we talk with Cheryl Salazar, a partner at the Part Time Marketing Group, where she focuses on helping tech corporations and their partners implement marketing strategies. For me, it was a fascinating conversation about challenges the enterprise tech companies face when talking to their customers. We talked about messaging and positioning and what to do to reach your customers with your content. We also talked about typical buzzwords that make your website look like everyone else and some positive examples of consistency in culture and messaging of the company. If you don’t want to miss new episodes and keep learning about building great websites, subscribe to us and to know our newsletter at osomstudio.com/newsletter. This is osomstudio.com/newsletter. If you are just on YouTube, give us a thumb and subscribe to the channel. This means a word to us. Without further ado, please enjoy my conversation with Sheryl Salazar.
Lector [00:01:11]:
Hey, everyone. It’s good to have you here. We’re glad you decided to tune in for this episode of the Osom To Know podcast.
Maciej Nowak [00:01:19]:
I was looking forward to this conversation because we are working a little bit in the same field, which is, a lot of technology companies. And, you know, when we are working with them, what I find, okay, is quite often is that their websites are lacking a little bit of, I don’t know, there’s too much features, they are too heavy. And I have a feeling like, for example, consumer brands don’t have that problem. They have it figured, they figured out it better way. So starting this conversation, I’m curious what are your experiences in this matter, you know, about communication for B2B tech companies?
Cheryl Salazar [00:02:01]:
That’s a great question. And, yeah, we face this problem every day. So unlike consumer brands where there’s demand. Right? You’re like, oh, I want a new pair of shoes. I’d like a new hat. I want an orange t-shirt. You just so yeah. That’s why I called that out. I love you know, that’s easy to find and you just buy and off you go. But, we when you’re in a b to b world, selling to other businesses, it’s and especially in the technology space, what we find is technologists are really smart people. They understand how to build solutions and great solutions, but where they miss the point every single time is in how they translate that for the end customer in a way that the end customer can understand what it is they have to offer. And so with their websites, what I tend to find is they start with something that’s pretty elementary. And then as they add features to the product, they’re like, oh, we need a page that talks about that feature, and we need a page that talks about that feature. So my the metaphor I like to use for that is and we all have this problem. Right? So you tidy up your cupboard. You’re like, oh, my clothes are all tidy.
Cheryl Salazar [00:03:19]:
They’re all in a row. And after 6 months, it’s a mess because you left your shoes on the floor, you didn’t hang up your shirt, and your closet or your cupboard is just a mess. That’s what websites are like. So it requires
Maciej Nowak [00:03:33]:
this that’s my cupboard. Yeah. I think you just described my cupboard.
Cheryl Salazar [00:03:37]:
Yeah. That’s right. And and we get pulled into a lot of website project, and I’m like, oh my gosh. It’s grown all kinds of legs, and nobody knows what anything is. And so imagine the poor end user. The end user is trying to figure out what it is you have to sell, and they can’t figure it out.
Maciej Nowak [00:03:57]:
Do you do you know of the moves? Like, you know, you end you you enter into a conversation and you you, like, immediately see the patterns, you know, the wrong doings. And so is it is it screaming culture? Is it, like, how you feel when you start to call cooperation with a new client?
Cheryl Salazar [00:04:16]:
Well, that’s an interesting question. So often when I’m pulled into a new client engagement, sometimes I can get very intimidated because they’re large tech companies. And I think, oh, they know what they’re doing. Why are they asking me for help? And the moment you dive under the covers, oh my gosh. That’s when you see all the mess. And I have learned over time, but this was through experience, to just tell them straight. There’s a reason why they hired organizations like ourselves. Right? They’re leaning on us for the knowledge and the best practices to tell them what they need to do.
Cheryl Salazar [00:04:58]:
So over time, I’ve become more straightforward with tell with telling them what to do. Really, I I point out and we use a funny term here. I point out their warts and say, you have a whole lot of warts on your website. Here’s kind of what needs to be fixed. The other thing I find they don’t pay much attention to, which is where companies like yourselves are really an essential part of the process, is they don’t think about the customer journey. Like, they prop up a page. It’s got all kinds of technical jargon on it. The end user, it’s not in their language, so, you know, they might not understand what this is all about, a bank, especially in the world of cloud where there tends to be a very technical area and, technologists like to use a lot of tech heavy terms.
Cheryl Salazar [00:05:54]:
Unless you’re an IT manager, you you don’t understand what’s on that page. So, you know, looking at your language, looking at your customer journey, are your calls to actions in the right place? Are you even looking at that data to know what to do with your calls to action? You know, there there’s so many elements to take a look at that they might be missing.
Maciej Nowak [00:06:15]:
Maybe this is like they are thinking, okay. We are only talking to, we’re only speaking to very technical people, like, even maybe developers. Right? Whereas this is entirely not the case, and they are like 2% of the whole population that is able to buy their products. So is it like coming from bad assumptions or is it just they can help themselves? Like, they they can be, like, contained in in that, in this matter.
Cheryl Salazar [00:06:43]:
It’s it’s sometimes it’s a combination of the 2, their excitement. I think a lot and it’s a generalization. Right? Maybe a lot of them don’t understand who their buyer is. They think it might be IT, but what I find sometimes with selling to IT is they can feel very threatened when a a technology savvy partner comes onto their patch, and now they’re talking about this, you know, these new tools or what it is. And that IT manager let’s face it. I would hate to be an IT manager in today’s world because technology is moving so fast, and how can you possibly keep up with everything? So I think your IT manager can often feel threatened by a partner who’s coming into the organization wanting to do all these things thinking that their job might be replaced. So that’s 1
Maciej Nowak [00:07:38]:
thing. So that they don’t feel, like, empowered by rather threatened.
Cheryl Salazar [00:07:42]:
Yeah. They can often feel threatened by the technology. And so I think the IT manager role is evolving. Whereas in the past, they used to do a lot of the doing. I think today, it’s probably evolving to more it’s the oversight. It’s the governance, making sure that the tools and technology are secure. So that role is completely changing. Right? And if you just think about the SaaS world and the 100 or thousands of tools available.
Cheryl Salazar [00:08:14]:
How do you sift through all that information to find what you need? So I’m gonna get off the IT manager. So they might
Maciej Nowak [00:08:22]:
Alright.
Cheryl Salazar [00:08:23]:
They might think this that’s the ideal customer profile. But I what I tend to find is, technology companies don’t often take the time to understand who the real buyer is, and they struggle to articulate the value in business terms. So if they are selling to the c suite, and a business user, the content on the website completely misses the mark with that buyer. I find that more often than not, that’s the problem.
Maciej Nowak [00:08:55]:
Again, I’m thinking about where is it coming from because you have all of the as a as a as a as a as the organization. You have all of the invoices. Who bought what? Right? What are the, what are the companies that are buying from you? And, also, you can trace no. The trace who from that organization is doing that. And then, okay, you are selecting the c suite, for example. And then there’s, like, what? I don’t know, a canyon dividing you and the content you are producing. So, you know, what’s the reason this is, you know, missing the mark? It it like, when I’m talking with you right now, it seems so obvious that you have too much. But maybe this is a question of this is so much more difficult to do in a way that the result is actually, you know, exactly speaking to the, to that target group in this cases.
Cheryl Salazar [00:09:48]:
What I find is, you know, these businesses tend to be moving really fast because with the cloud, things just happen so quickly. Right? So they’re moving fast. They don’t often go back and look at the data. What I find and why we’re successful is they don’t often staff their companies with the right people. So I often find I might be working with half a marketing person, so somebody who’s doing marketing and another job. And that person doesn’t have the time to look at the data. So often we start that conversation as, well, let’s look at your data. Who is doing the buying? And then, you know, let’s break it up into categories.
Cheryl Salazar [00:10:30]:
Do we know the role? Do we know the company type? Then let’s develop messaging to target more of the customers that are driving the revenue. And what are those customers? And and so then we come down to what we call a messaging framework. So when we do messaging frameworks, say, we’re, doing something for dairy farmers. K. So I’m filling to dairy to dairies, and I need to talk to the farm manager, maybe the quality person, and the supply chain person. I I don’t even know if that’s a role in dairies, to be quite honest, but we’ll we’ll just assume, you know, you have to get hay. You have to get your milk picked up. You have to do all these things.
Cheryl Salazar [00:11:15]:
Do you have messaging that covers all those personas? Oftentimes, what we find is they will have a pretty good idea of 1 persona, but not all the other influential personas that might be looking for the solution and then telling the buyer what they want. So the buyer is not necessarily doing the research. It’s often the user who’s looking for the solution, who’s trying to find what they need, and is informing the buyer about what they want. So your, yeah, your messaging persona needs to cover multiple profiles within your desired customer.
Maciej Nowak [00:11:57]:
Mhmm. So so there’s a a person that has a problem and want and it’s in their own interest to find a solution to that problem, but the sponsor of that solution is someone else and and maybe another department. And then not only that person who found that solution has to be, pretty sure this is your your way a way to go, the the target software, but then the whole buying department. Right? And then the so this is totally different story. How are the buying, let’s say, the purchase, the procurement going to understand what they are even procuring. Right?
Cheryl Salazar [00:12:33]:
Yeah. Yeah. And I think procurement is coming down to it’s, you know, the validation of the solution, the security of it, the pricing negotiating the price. I often tell clients you really need to focus on the user pain points. So understanding who your users are and what they’re struggling with, that’s where you have to target your solution. And then you produce different content for the procurement person. So that might be a pricing matrix, you know, do you do small, medium, large? You know, what does implementation look like? What does post implementation support look like? So those are all things you you build to address the person who’s doing the buyer. And then just in response to, something we spoke about a little earlier is, often when the message is complicated and and the end customer doesn’t understand, they often ask their peers for recommendations.
Cheryl Salazar [00:13:33]:
So those peers are always good sources of references. You know, I’m like, hey, Mache. I’m trying to do this. Who do you use? And you’re going to tell me, well, this is the solution we’ve used in the past. We hated it. We bought this 1. We love it. So often those recommendations can be key to the buying process.
Maciej Nowak [00:13:52]:
Yeah. This is also interesting because if you’re that that legendary word-of-mouth. Right? So that and and coming with all of the, you know, consequences. Like, if you have a, not very bad solution, you hate, you will tell 10 pers 10 people that you hate that solution, and you will be very, like, outspoken spokes per person against that, that, that tool. That’s, and so is is your opinion, like, if the correct messaging is missing from the side that word-of-mouth is more, prominent in selecting the proper software?
Cheryl Salazar [00:14:31]:
Good question. I don’t know I have any data to support that, but more of a gut feel. What we tend to find here in the US is, you know, certain industries are very word-of-mouth strong. So 1 of that would be in every state, we have multiple counties. And the people who run the counties, they go to certain events, and they meet other people from other counties in the state. I mean, the state of Washington, we maybe have, I don’t know, I’m just gonna guess, 20 counties. Right? So that is very much a word-of-mouth environment because they want to know, okay. You’ve solved this problem in your county.
Cheryl Salazar [00:15:13]:
What did you do and how do you use it? Okay. I’m gonna go find that same solution and do that in my county. So that’s it’s I would say it’s more of a gut feel. I don’t know that there’s any data to support it necessarily in certain industries, but I do find with, some of my clients, you know, speaking about customer service specifically, it’s how you treat your customers. And if they have a good experience with you, when they leave working with you, they will take you with them. So they might move to another company and say, oh, I really want to replace this tool. I’m going to use that same partner I I worked with at the last company. So it’s multifaceted.
Cheryl Salazar [00:15:58]:
I think at the end of the date, it comes down to what’s my experience with you. What is the service, were you sensitive to my needs when I needed help, and how did you fix my problem? I think regardless of what your website says, I think it comes down to customer service at the end of the day.
Maciej Nowak [00:16:18]:
Yeah. Yeah. That’s true. For for word-of-mouth to tell you because you have to have the experience to share better good or better. Right? Regardless that that will be, experienced. But this is this is interesting. And, we covered slightly the messaging, and I would like to go deeper there because, there is positioning and there is messaging messaging. And, you know, and there is also branding.
Maciej Nowak [00:16:43]:
Like, so can you, like, walk us through a little bit more in the, you know, nuances of messaging and positioning? Because I have a feeling it’s sometimes confused, you know, what what’s the role of both meanings.
Cheryl Salazar [00:16:58]:
Yeah. And some of that transcends the other. But, you know, branding is more like if you make statements, and I’m trying to think if I have a couple of statements. Like, we are a green company. We are energy efficient. We produce sustainable products. We are meeting carbon emissions. So that’s part of my brand.
Cheryl Salazar [00:17:24]:
But if I don’t prove it to you, like, I’m selling you something, you’ll find that it’s energy inefficient. I’m polluting the atmosphere. I’ve completely fallen flat out on on my promises to you. So my branding is more my promises to you as a customer. I do these things, and we we showed in our the products we build, the people we hire, etcetera, etcetera. With messaging, it’s messaging and positioning. It’s more around who are you really serving. So if I’m going after small business and I’m trying to sell a product that’s $10, 000 a month, that is not a small business product.
Cheryl Salazar [00:18:11]:
And you really have to think about in a small business, maybe you’re dealing with solopreneurs, so single owner companies, 5 people, 10 people. They don’t have the kind of budget to pay $10, 000 a month or anything. So really understanding how they might buy, should they go on subscription, and then what products do they need most. So really honing your product to position it for a segment in the market. And then when it comes to messaging, it’s, are you using a lot of jargon? Or you’re really I like to use this term using the vernacular of the of the customer. So if I’m a bakery owner and you’re going to sell me, a CRM solution, It doesn’t help me if that CRM solution talks about things like, warehouses and warehouse managers and customer service reps. I want to know things like, I don’t need to manage my suppliers. I need to know where my flower is.
Cheryl Salazar [00:19:18]:
You know? So so really articulating your message in the words of the customer that resonates better with them. So that when it comes to messaging, really, really important.
Maciej Nowak [00:19:30]:
What you mentioned is the exact thing that is very often missing from the websites. And you mentioned that, you know, you are doing, I don’t know, tidying up in your cupboard, and then 6 months later, you can start from scratch. So there is that process that messes up everything again. Right? So you create new features and what? Someone forgot how to write a proper copy about the problem that feature solves and just pasted the name of that feature. And, you know, my experiences are when building a new website, you know, we have to build the website and then find a place to do all of those slogans, promises, features, and and and definitions. And then we are observing the team how the client team struggles to come up with those, with the with with a change because the need for a new website, you know, has arisen from some, from from website not meeting that need. Right? And then we are starting to build a new website, and we are observing that the team’s struggling to make a difference this time, like to create a different website. And they face the same, like, trying to go the same path.
Maciej Nowak [00:20:44]:
And and we are trying to, you know, correct their their their their their their, their. So how can you change that behavior in the organization that is rooted for such a long time in this feature oriented thinking, which is from the old times, let’s say.
Cheryl Salazar [00:21:03]:
Yeah. Yeah. And and it is a struggle, especially today with, you know, algorithm marketing. Algorithm marketing is is really throwing a challenge at everybody. Back in the old days, the old days being 2 years ago
Maciej Nowak [00:21:18]:
Wow. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Cheryl Salazar [00:21:21]:
Yeah. I’m trying to fly. You know, the the best practice was you could write a web page that was 700 words long. Well, guess what? Users don’t have the time to read your 700 words, and so now it comes down to really being concise with what you’re trying to say. So what we lead with is, you know, this kind of your hero image with a statement. This is kinda this is what we do for the industry we serve. Right? You follow that with the 3 problems you are solving. So that’s customer facing problems.
Cheryl Salazar [00:21:57]:
Like, we’re going to speed up your bank reconciliation. We’re going to help you find your cash. We’re going to integrate with ecommerce. You know, whatever the 3 problem statements are, then we tend to go down into have we helped other people just like you. So testimonials, case studies. Sometimes with new technology, you won’t have the case study to talk about. So, often, a use case can be really powerful there. So you’re really showing the prospects in real terms 3 or 4 use cases where they can use that technology as it relates to their business.
Cheryl Salazar [00:22:41]:
And then you you might have a carousel or kind of a tab feature that really explains in more depth the feature and the benefit that this product gives. So this is my feature, 2 sentences about the benefits. So you’re trying to keep it really crisp. Often, video can address a lot of these issues we’re facing. So we want to tell people all about our product, like, so much about our pro product. But you maybe have a 92nd video that just conveys the essence of what your product does. So encourage people to think about video, and then you can always have a couple of downloads, data sheets for people who do want to read more or want to share it with somebody. And then you need to have a very clear process of how do you get started with somebody like me.
Cheryl Salazar [00:23:35]:
Step 1, we will do a needs analysis. Step 2, we do this. Step 3, we do this. So that’s kind of how we look at the page structure. But then you think about your content. Right? So top of the funnel content tends to be very educational. It’s things like ebooks and infographics and blogs and emails, blah blah blah blah blah. Then you’re you’re starting to okay.
Cheryl Salazar [00:24:01]:
So how do I take people from the top of the funnel and kind of move them down until I can get a sale? Well, then you start looking at things like case studies. There could be an online demo of your tool, and then you have a pricing matrix. So I find technology companies tend to hide their pricing. Either it’s very competitive or they’re reluctant to give it out. But that’s what the the person who’s visiting your website is like, okay. I like the solution. What is the price? And we take great delight in hiding our price because we want people to call us. Well, people don’t want to call you.
Cheryl Salazar [00:24:38]:
They want to know how much does it cost? Can I even afford this? Yes or no. Move along. You know? So I find that’s a big gap.
Maciej Nowak [00:24:46]:
But this is also very, interesting, the need for hiding the pricing because then you leave the data, get in touch with sales, or book a d demo. And there is a lot of arguments for having, hidden pricing, because you might not qualify. Right? So instead of, like, spending time of a sales rep, you know, doing a demo for you if you are not qualified. Yeah. Maybe the open pricing would disqualify you because you wouldn’t, in the first place, reach out. But but then there is a lot of argumentation going into the fact that without the human, let’s say, help with a demo, live demo, or some kind of interaction with a sales rep that can advise, that person wouldn’t convert because they don’t see the value in the product. And I’m not digging deeper into whether this is, you know, a product problem or it’s a different difficult category or whatever, but there is that argumentation for hiding the the pricing. We were we had hidden pricing for a long time, and right now, we have a again, for a long time right now, we have open pricing because this disqualifies, you know, people who are now not willing to spend, certain amount of money with us.
Cheryl Salazar [00:26:10]:
Yeah. And, you know, it’s a it you kind of have to figure out where you’re gonna lay your bets. I would say if you show the price, people are more likely to say, okay. It’s kind of maybe a little bit more than I was anticipating. Yeah. They if it’s completely outrageous, you probably don’t want that customer, and you don’t want that customer to tie up your sales team. But if you’re pretty close, they probably more likely will reach out and say, okay. Let me watch this demo.
Cheryl Salazar [00:26:38]:
Let me talk to the sales guy to see if it really warrants that extra investment. Or maybe I can work with them on a payment plan. So it could still potentially wheel somebody in. What drives me crazy? It drives me crazy. In the SaaS world, you want to buy a tool and you cannot talk to a human. You’re gonna reach out to them, please. I need some information. Can I talk to somebody? You absolutely nobody will give you a callback or anything.
Cheryl Salazar [00:27:13]:
It drives me crazy. Like, I just have a simple question. Can I chat with your bot on your website? Some of them don’t have bots. Or the bot keeps responding but misses the mark. I I really think it’s a terrible user experience. It drives me crazy. There you go. That’s what I had to say.
Maciej Nowak [00:27:32]:
Yeah. Very good. We we we’ve got on our we’ve got that on record. Be aware, guys. Be aware if Sherry finds you. Yeah. But the I speaking of bots, I have very recent, very good, interaction with a bot via, WhatsApp messenger. It was a hotel, which was a desk class, so I was on my own.
Maciej Nowak [00:27:56]:
And the question I asked got replied immediately via, the only form of contact, which was WhatsApp and and, consultant down the road when I dig deeper. But my open ended questions were answered immediately, and they were correct. I was so much impressed. And you spoke about 2 years ago, old times 2 years ago. I, that was like a moment for me even though, you know, I I know about ChargeGPT and, you know, we we use some of those tools and but, you know, as, like, consumer, different city and and so on, that that was really, like, I was impressed. I was really impressed because I also used bots on other I I had to use bots on other services. And they were they’re they were to tell you that they were just terrible. And that marvels Integrated with the, you know, management of the whole place.
Maciej Nowak [00:28:57]:
If I could use the storage room for my luggage, you know, if my room is already airy and so on. So amazing. It it was amazing. Totally off topic, but it was amazing.
Cheryl Salazar [00:29:09]:
Yeah. And I think, you know, people really need to think through that experience. So you would you would use that again. Right? But if I’m on your website and and the bot is I don’t know. I don’t know if the bot’s even doing anything. I will never come back, and I will tell all my friends, don’t bother. Yeah.
Maciej Nowak [00:29:25]:
Yeah. You you you won’t
Cheryl Salazar [00:29:28]:
Yeah. And and I think I find it especially prevalent with SaaS companies. They’re like, well, it’s a $10 widget I’m selling you. I’m not gonna support anybody for $10. Well, you maybe I would pay more to get better service. Have you thought about that?
Maciej Nowak [00:29:45]:
Mhmm. And that’s the, legendary enterprise tier. Right? You’ve got those people helping you onboard and and implement your, your product. Right? And there is always SSO coming in that plan too. Right? So the the only difference between, like, a pro. So 3rd, I have that matrix, like, imprint that in my memory. There is, like, free to year basic, then there is a pro. And then most of the time, there is enterprise, which only differ differs in the fact that you’ve got the, human beings, like priority support.
Maciej Nowak [00:30:20]:
You have SSO. You have users management and, like, admin level, privileges to manage the users. And that’s basically it. And you have no pricing for that. There is always call sales for, for enterprise, pricing details or hosting. This is, this is, prevalent. We spoke about, the bot agents, and I can’t, I I have to ask you because, you know, this is a question I have, forever of my best recently. What about content and AI? What’s the what’s the link here and how you can use AI without burning you or how you cannot use AI without burning burning you?
Cheryl Salazar [00:31:06]:
Yeah. It’s it’s a very topical question right now because I, up until 2 months ago, I didn’t really use any kind of AI. And then, I’m currently doing a project right now where my client is heavily reliant on chat gpt just for fundamental stuff. And what I’ve noticed is, you know, every every technology has its problem. Like, with anything that’s that’s out from chat gbt, I see the same overuse of words that we see in the technology sector. It probably because it’s on all our websites. And if we’re referring to the website, it’s just giving us back what’s on the website. So it’s kind of interesting in that it’s exposing some of the issues technology partners are having on their website.
Cheryl Salazar [00:32:00]:
Everything is explore and navigate, and I’m like, these are terms that are overused. So that’s pretty interesting. I would say it has been a a really good help for those moments where you’re kind of just stuck. You know? It sounds like it’s really simple to write an email. It is really simple to write an email, but there comes a time in your day where you’re like, I just can’t think of what to say. I think that’s a great tool to use. What do you say? I have a client, what he does, and I’m like, oh, that’s an interesting use case. He had to write a a blog on a very specific topic, but he didn’t have time to sit down and write it.
Cheryl Salazar [00:32:42]:
So he recorded it, And he ran it through the paid version of chat gpt, and he’s like, wow. I got quite a good outcome. So it was still original content that he created, but tech gbt could then take that content and put it in a format that made sense. So, I thought that was a great a great use case. And then another client of mine, we’re doing some work with him on Google paid ads through our mutual partner, and we needed to create a matrix comparing different products with each other. And instead of taking several hours to sit down with his team to get the brain dump from all of them and put it on the whiteboard and figure out what they were gonna say. He basically plugged in the URLs of the competitor website and said, build me a matrix that focuses on this product for this segment featuring, outlining where these products are similar or different. And literally, Mache, within 30 seconds, we had a table that we could use.
Cheryl Salazar [00:33:55]:
So then we sat down with that table, and then the team had something to work with. So instead of spending a day trying to figure it out and wonder, they had some tangible data they could use and then say, okay. We believe this statement might be misleading. Let’s clean that up. And and so that was a really great use of a tool like CheckGPT.
Maciej Nowak [00:34:19]:
I I think this is something that, it was meant to be, like, a great starter because instead of like, people taking this are taking this too far and are replacing all of the creative juices with with chat GPT juices. And and if you use that to set up something for a starter for a team, this is totally different story. You just don’t do the heavy lifting. You fine tune and polish something that, you know, someone else in case in that case, Trigpt duck from, you know, under the under the earth. Right?
Cheryl Salazar [00:34:54]:
Yeah. And and kind of the analogy is if you remember the days when we went to automated voice on phones. Right? And and and this is probably 20 years ago. I don’t know how many years ago. But it was very frustrating that you couldn’t actually speak to a person. You had to press a number and press another number, and then eventually, you’re like, where am I in this, yeah, in this tree? I just want to talk to a human. It’s a little bit like that. I think we we are all smart enough to spot the AI driven content.
Cheryl Salazar [00:35:29]:
At the end of the day, we have to remember we want to deal with people. We are people, and people work best with people. Like, yep. The the bot is great in certain in certain circumstances, but I want to buy from somebody. If I have a problem, I want to know who I’m going to choke. You know? It’s like, I need to talk to the person who sold me this thing, and he needs to fix it. I can’t talk to a bot. I think that’s where we
Maciej Nowak [00:35:57]:
That’s why such companies are setting up buzz buzz for for this sake so that you you have no 1 to choke, actually.
Lector [00:36:07]:
That’s right. Yep. That’s why, like, we’re just, you know, hide behind all of this.
Cheryl Salazar [00:36:12]:
But I think that’s an important thing to remember is we we like to work with people, and and we want to buy from people we trust.
Maciej Nowak [00:36:21]:
Yeah. I think I think this is a great statement. IIII think we can pull it as 1 of the, like, highlights from this conversation because this is, there is so much push towards, autumn automaton automation of different tasks. Is that, you know, people are people are diving so deep into the AI that, you know, they are overusing this and they’re like, you know, the it’s like a tool every kid is using now and, you know, it’s so obvious that this is this is the case. And, yeah. And there are certain words that are overused by, as you mentioned, by, by any, like text generator. And I see them and I just, you know, I know no 1 uses those words and they are just, you know, generated. And I’m like, okay.
Maciej Nowak [00:37:10]:
Mhmm. I can move I can move on.
Cheryl Salazar [00:37:14]:
Take it
Maciej Nowak [00:37:14]:
from there.
Cheryl Salazar [00:37:16]:
Yeah. And and you know what? I would love to see more of in our field is, you know, some people do a great job on their website. They use different colors. They’re very, they might use a mascot. Their terminology is a little bit cheeky. So you enjoy reading the copy. I think where we all get stuck is we feel like we can’t bring humor to our work because the person reading our content might not appreciate it. So I would love to see more people just using puns and and humor in their copy because I think that keeps people on-site and and engages them.
Lector [00:38:00]:
Yeah. Yeah. But that that’s a huge struggle with the
Maciej Nowak [00:38:03]:
b to b companies. Like, I don’t know. I I have a feeling that if you think of a tech company and if it is not like a SaaS startup, you know, with that promise of rapid breaking and everything. But if you have if you have an established b to b business in tech space, it’s like either that very rap, like, rapidly moving SaaS platform or a little bit sad office like, you know, company outlook, type of company. You know, the the and this is like hard to find because I’m we are providing so refined solution to our, reverent clients and so on that. It’s like this this this way of being very, very stiff because our our clients are I don’t know, maybe stiff coming from very stiff, industry. So we saw that, thinking if you are that b to b, I don’t know, software vendor and work with very stiff, sector, you are like that sector. And and you just suck this stiffness and there is no way of being a little bit fun, but maybe this is what is working.
Maciej Nowak [00:39:15]:
Like where, like, serious people reading serious, websites, it’s clicking.
Cheryl Salazar [00:39:22]:
Yeah. I mean, there is a point to that. I think we all fall into that trap, and I find people tend to take more risk if they’re selling to small businesses. And and by risk, I mean, they’ll use bolder colors. They’ll use copy that’s a little bit more engaging, and they’ll just have fun. Right? And I think small businesses, that resonates really well. But if to your point, if I’m sending to other enterprises, they’re like, oh, you know, we don’t appreciate that kind of thing. I think that certainly holds true.
Cheryl Salazar [00:39:54]:
Yeah.
Maciej Nowak [00:39:55]:
And and and also you mentioned in the beginning of our conversation that you were also, like, stressed, intimidated by those big organizations. And then you see under the hood and okay. There is a reason we are talking. Right? And maybe this is like a bit of an impostor syndrome.
Cheryl Salazar [00:40:13]:
Yes. Certainly. And what I tend to find is a lot of companies, they grow by acquisition. So now you’ve got all these disparate teams. You’re trying to drive cohesion. And then just thinking about the website and and this is how we got connected. Right? Building global websites and bringing teams together, and how do you get it? And teams and cultures and languages. It is not an easy thing to solve, and your website is kind of your calling card.
Cheryl Salazar [00:40:43]:
My people that’s the first place they go to check you out. So and and it’s it’s not something you solve in 6 months. I think it’s something you iterate over time. But I think there needs to be, certainly, in my experience, you know, good oversight and people who are web savvy. I find often there’s no web savvy person anywhere in the conversation. Somebody who’s looked at the journey, who’s really deep in the trenches. They almost say, well, we’ll find a vendor and and they have to figure it out. So then the problem sits with you, and you don’t always have control over the problem.
Maciej Nowak [00:41:24]:
We talked a little bit about the problems we we are facing when when visiting such websites. And what are the 3 most obvious obvious problems you you always look for when when starting any cooperation or or the company’s making like?
Cheryl Salazar [00:41:41]:
It’s a good question. Are we if we’re talking specifically websites, Like, I see a lot with the websites that look the same. I would love to see some original photography, some original pictures. I see the same stuff over and over and over again. I see the same types of copy. I think in our space, a lot of the big software publishers will push out web copy, and the partner organization will take it without customizing it. So a lot of the content is duplicated across different organizations, so they haven’t taken the time to do that. And people don’t put much on their about us page at all.
Cheryl Salazar [00:42:28]:
And I look at that, I’m like, you know that your second most important page on your website is about us. Because we want to know who are these people? Do I know any of them? Do they have the same interest at me? What what do they look like? And and there there were a couple of reasons for that. But I think 1 of them, we just need to move on because they say, well, if I put my staff out there, somebody’s going to poach them. Well, you know, if they’re unhappy, they’re going to leave anyway. But you
Maciej Nowak [00:42:56]:
need to for that. They’re thinking for poaching. Wow. Yeah.
Cheryl Salazar [00:43:01]:
Yeah. Yeah. But, you know, it’s it’s like, show who you are. It’s like, and I have a client who does a really great job. They and and I’ve known them for years, and they became a client maybe 8 or 9 months ago, and they function very much like a family. They really feel like they are a family, and that’s what I’ve always known about them. Couple of times a year, they shut the whole company down. They put a note on their website that says, we’re cruising to Alaska.
Cheryl Salazar [00:43:32]:
Our whole company is out of the office. If you would need support, here’s our knowledge base. That’s what they do. Then they go on retreats altogether, and they really are like a family. And and they become that’s part of their branding. Back to branding. So you know when you deal with them, somebody is gonna respond to you. Right? It might not be I might not be the 1, but I’m gonna say, hey.
Cheryl Salazar [00:43:59]:
Can you get back this client today? And so that delivers a really great customer outcome. And and that comes through on that about us page. And they live it, they show it, and and they display that behavior with their customers. And so that’s positioning, branding, messaging, all in 1 on a an about us page.
Maciej Nowak [00:44:22]:
Amazing example. That that’s actually amazing example of also variable move, making it so prominent even you shut nearly shut down your website because then as a customer, okay, who is going to respond to my kind email and kind inquire? Right? So it’s like, I that’s why I’m saying this is a bold move because it is also a signal for the customer that these guys will be at some point in your throughout the year unresponsive. Right? So if I need something that they are not there.
Cheryl Salazar [00:44:57]:
And they’ve trained their customers that that’s what they do and the customers appreciate it. They’re like, wow, I wish my company would do that.
Maciej Nowak [00:45:06]:
Yeah. Yeah. So this is also great that they, accustomed their customers for for for for this action. You know, depending on the software, maybe this is totally totally fine. But I love I love this story. I love the, example.
Cheryl Salazar [00:45:20]:
Yeah. And that also, you build good software where you don’t always need support. You have to start with building good software. Yep.
Maciej Nowak [00:45:28]:
You can create some messaging around that, that we can afford to go to Alaska for, I don’t know, let’s say a week because our software is stable and you, you will notice.
Cheryl Salazar [00:45:39]:
That’s right.
Maciej Nowak [00:45:41]:
I love it. We’ve been talking also about the about us page. And this is, something, this is very interesting because this is a second page I visit when a customer reach out to us for anything. Like so I want to understand who are who am I dealing with. And then, obviously, I I see I I’m trying to figure out who is the person, you know, in the organization or or chart and and so on. So that about us page is, like, neglected People there the I think there’s a lot of advice, on the Internet about no 1 cares about who you are. You have to solve the problem for the customer. And then there is, like, organization who is which is an anonymous nearly on the organization because you can’t read anything about the background on that, on that company.
Maciej Nowak [00:46:30]:
Or there is, like, a half a page, half a screen page, tiny page. So this is this is interesting, insight also.
Cheryl Salazar [00:46:40]:
Yeah. It it makes me it it it begs the question, what are you hiding? You’re hiding something, and I want to know what that is. You know? Do I really trust you? Mhmm.
Maciej Nowak [00:46:55]:
And I’m guilty of it too because when I, I was on 1 of, WordCamp which are, WordPress, conferences. And I talked with a a fellow agency on there, and it it it was in Vienna. And we had, like, an an hour, hour long conversation about life. You know? We’ve used at the same places by accident in in Asia and and so and so. I had really, like, interesting conversation totally, not about business, but rather, you know, similar experiences we we we shared. He he spent, like, I don’t know, a couple of years in India doing voluntary work. So interesting interesting stuff. And then he shared, like, next day when we met, for the, for the conference, he shared like, match.ai.ai.
Maciej Nowak [00:47:40]:
I looked up your website. And if we didn’t talk the day before, you looks like a, you know, bogus organization. I don’t know, even if you, if there is anyone else apart from you, because on your, yeah. About us page, it’s like very short info. So I and I thought that there is no picture of team members. And I thought, okay, This is interesting perspective because we had team members on the page, but we thought, you know, this is no there is no point in showing them and and because who cares. Right? And and we have to manage the, you know, like, agreements to use the pictures and so on. So we got rid of that.
Maciej Nowak [00:48:21]:
And then someone comes with a feedback, you know, Maciej, also, it looks like a bogus website. Right? III was shocked really. I was shocked. And we each then changed that, after that, because of that, of that feedback.
Cheryl Salazar [00:48:37]:
So I have another example that happened in the last month. So my client installed some, like, tracking information on the website. You know, those tools that expose the domain of who’s been on your website and what they’ve explored? And a specific organization went through his team members in detail. So we we’re trying to land some new logos for a specific software product, and it’s a very challenging exercise. So we’re always looking for clues. Who might be looking? What are they looking for? How do we get these new logos? And this company that was on their website went through all the team members, read all the bios of the team members for that product, and then called them up because that’s what they wanted. This prospect wanted to know which team he was gonna deal with with that specific product. So I would even encourage people to really look at bios closely.
Cheryl Salazar [00:49:36]:
Like, you might want to say like, we sell a lot into the accounting spaces where we do a lot of our work. So things like CPA qualifications are really when really important because accountants like to buy from accountants, people who really understand their day job. Right? So looking down to the qualification level, whether it’s technical, you know, dot net, ASP, whatever those languages are that you might understand to business qualifications, all of that is relevant.
Maciej Nowak [00:50:07]:
I recorded 1 of the recent episodes, with Adam Robinson, and I’m bringing this example because, you mentioned about that software that that tracks the domain level. So organization level, visitors, he’s building a tool that tracks a person level, visitors. So, you know, exact person based on, you know, a lot of cookies and and and and so on. But this is like a person level, tracking, which, you know, might be interesting for your customers if they are using software like that.
Cheryl Salazar [00:50:44]:
Yeah. Interesting. But at the same time, it feels very invasive. So, I mean, we all want that information. Right? Like, I wanna sell to you because you’ve been on my website. But if you under awesome studio, I don’t know who to call. So we all want that information, but I think we have to really develop the right approach. And how do you reach out with me without me getting freaked out that you’re like, oh, now you you know, that feels like privacy lines are starting to blur, but we all want the tool.
Cheryl Salazar [00:51:18]:
So how do we handle that?
Maciej Nowak [00:51:20]:
At least with, with big supermarkets and stores, this is like for tens of years, you, that they know your, I don’t know, your, you, you private so much. Yeah. And and there there there are those, like, remarkable stories how they were able to, based on the purchases, not like, track down a person to to, like, a person level and sent out a package of, I don’t know, free goodies for a, for a lady who was pregnant and was expecting a baby. And this was like, I read about this a couple of years ago, and this was called, like, it was known for tens of years with with with all of the big data. Let’s but we are talking about, like, nineties or maybe eighties. I don’t really remember how the initiatives to hide this information so that this is not so, like, shockingly accurate. Are, the for example, the newspapers that that that are distributed, like those collaterals, paper collaterals are, saturated with totally irrelevant items, like, I don’t know, grass, movers or tools so that you think you this is random stuff that you find exactly in the need right now. And
Cheryl Salazar [00:52:44]:
and, you know, that’s a great example of how do you handle that. So if you if I know Mache was on my website and he’s looking at something very specific, then sending that direct mail piece, like the box of goodies for pregnant woman, I’d be like, wow. That’s amazing. And guess what? I’ll go back to the store because that’s how they treated me. So I think that’s where where I come back to it’s how you handle that information. There’ll be a lot of bad actors who will just start calling and harassing you, but the the firm who takes the time to really think about that experience they’re trying to develop, I think that will be the winner.
Maciej Nowak [00:53:22]:
On 1 hand, it will be more and more, like prevailing because of the AI, because of the, like, ease, with which it will be possible to track, person level activities or better understanding of the behavior or even maybe ideas for for different activities. At the same time, it will be worse and worse with more people calling, with with irrelevant stuff, with more mass mailings, all of all automated because it it’s so much cheaper. The landscape changes and everything has to adapt with countermeasures too. So there is a new way of, cheaper ways to do something, and then the countermeasures are being developed to, you know, to mitigate that, side effects, let’s say.
Cheryl Salazar [00:54:11]:
Yeah. So, I didn’t know this was, really happened in your part of the world. But back when AOL was trying to get customers, we used to get remember the CD ROMs? We used to get, like, every day in the mail with the CD ROM from AOL. Sign up. Here’s your like What
Maciej Nowak [00:54:31]:
was on the on that disk?
Cheryl Salazar [00:54:33]:
I don’t know. I never put it in my computer because at that time, I don’t know what kind of a I wasn’t an AOL customer. I don’t even remember. Maybe it was Hotmail. So I I never used it, but we got them in the 1, 000, 1, 000.
Maciej Nowak [00:54:49]:
Wow. That’s amazing. Never heard about it. But I what the it’s as an app? I don’t know. Terms of contract?
Cheryl Salazar [00:54:58]:
Well, it was the in the days when, you know, Yahoo, Hotmail, AOL were all trying to win American consumers over to their email platforms, and that’s how they were marketing to customers or prospects to get them on the AOL platform. But, yeah, I didn’t bite. But it reminds me of those days where there was just, like, excessive marketing for what essentially is a free inbox. Right? But I guess if you get a lot of customers, then you have millions that you can then sell those users to somebody else. Yeah. It’s different. Hopefully, we won’t go back to those days.
Maciej Nowak [00:55:41]:
I think we are in those days, but in different let’s say, these are just different flavor. Yeah. We don’t notice. It’s not so obvious, but it’s obviously happening. Just the tools are different, less screaming in your face.
Cheryl Salazar [00:55:58]:
More insidious now.
Maciej Nowak [00:56:00]:
Oh, yeah. Yeah. I agree. Alright. Cheryl, thank you so much for the conversation. I know you have to run very, very soon. So I really appreciate our conversation. I enjoyed it very, very much. And I hope our listeners had a have a chance to grab a piece or 2 of advice and and make their websites better, based on this conversation.
Cheryl Salazar [00:56:27]:
Yeah. No. Thank you. I appreciate you inviting me to join you. It’s been fun.
Maciej Nowak [00:56:32]:
Thank you. Thank you. See you, maybe next time, and take care.
Lector [00:56:38]:
If you like what you’ve just heard, don’t forget to subscribe for more episodes. On the other hand, if you’ve got a question we haven’t answered yet, feel free to reach out to us directly. Just go to osomstudio.com/contact. Thanks for listening. And see you in the next episode of the Osom To Know.
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