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Welcome to Osom to Know. In this episode, we explore the challenges and triumphs of managing a WordPress plugin with over 30 million users. Marieke van de Rakt and Maciej Nowak provide insights into investment ventures and open-source software.
Marieke shares her experiences with diversity in the WordPress community and the evolving tech ecosystem. Join us for a thought-provoking exploration of innovation, inclusivity, and the evolving role of technology in our lives.
Marieke van de Rakt is an entrepreneur, a marketeer and an investor in the WordPress Space. Next to that, she writes a weekly column about WordPress on Poststatus. Marieke was the co-founder and CEO of Yoast before Yoast was sold to Newfold Digital in 2021.
Maciej Nowak [00:00:00]:
Hello, everyone. My name is Maciej Nowak, and welcome to the Osom To Know podcast where we discuss all things related to building great websites. In this episode, we talk with Marieke van de Rakt, a cofounder of Yoast SEO plugin. Marieke served as both CRO and CEO of Yoast and now focuses on running her venture fund called Emilia Capital. We talked about women in tech and in business, her history at Yoast, and the investment thesis behind Emilia Capital.
If you don’t want to miss new episodes and keep learning more about building great websites, subscribe to Osom To Know newsletter at osomstudio.com/newsletter. If you watch this on YouTube, give us a thumb up and subscribe to the channel. This means a word to us.
Maciej Nowak [00:00:41]:
Without further ado, please enjoy my conversation with Marieke van de Rakt.
Lector [00:00:54]:
Hey, everyone. It’s good to have you here. We’re glad you decided to tune in for this episode of the Osom to Know podcast.
Maciej Nowak [00:01:02]:
Hello, Marieke. Thank you very much for joining the pod.
Marieke van de Rakt [00:01:04]:
Wow. You’re welcome. I’m very happy to be here. Yeah.
Maciej Nowak [00:01:08]:
Yeah. Yeah. And and we started we started, our conversation about, about doing this podcast together, inspired by your post on post status about, different open source communities. You know, there there’s WordPress community. There are other, huge open source projects with our with their own backing communities. And I I would love to, like, listen to your take, also for our listeners. How would you describe, you know, WordPress community versus other communities as like for for starters? So is there any difference in those, you know, backing communities in your opinion?
Marieke van de Rakt [00:01:49]:
Well, I I think the WordPress community is very special, but that’s just because I love it so much. So I don’t know if that’s true. But I do think that because we are an open source community, people are really invested in the project. And you see people sticking around for a long time, not because of financial gain, because but because they really believe in it. And what I also see is that that somehow led to a very diverse community with a lot of people from all over the world with a lot of color and also a lot of gender, which is something you not always see in other tech communities. The the number of women in our WordPress community is is relatively high. And at the same time, I think so I’ve I’ve been, last week, III I’ve joined the the startup community in in the Netherlands, and I usually don’t go to those events because I I don’t know. I’m too busy.
Marieke van de Rakt [00:02:43]:
But now IIII went there and I was the only woman in in the room. I was the only 1. And, which which doesn’t happen to me at word camps. Never. And, there are also peep a lot of people working with WordPress, but no none of them ever went to a WordCamp. So now I was very curious to why why you’re working with WordPress and you’re not going to a WordCamp. So I think somehow there is this whole world outside of the WordPress community, which we don’t necessarily, know of because it’s it’s it is like an an in crowd thing, the WordPress community. And, it’s good to to to look beyond our own borders and to see how other people are working, and and what where where they get their information from and stuff.
Maciej Nowak [00:03:32]:
That’s super interesting, for for a couple of reasons. 1, last Friday, so less than a week ago, there was international women, day. So and then you end up in that, in that, startup event being the the only woman that’s Yeah. Yeah. That that’s interesting. And with workers coming to it’s it’s very it’s big. At the same time, it’s, I would say, kinematic a little bit. A lot of people were using WordPress and never, I I guess, they never heard of WordCamp.
Maciej Nowak [00:04:04]:
And I have a feeling that this is the same division as you are using Microsoft Technologies, and there are Microsoft conferences for, ISVs or any other partners. I would say there are producers and consumers, and you met only the consumers on in that event. Right?
Marieke van de Rakt [00:04:21]:
Yeah. I met and I and I usually I I go to a lot of word camps, and I go to, SEO conferences. That’s a bit my thing. And, so I now did something totally different, which was it was only in in the Netherlands. It was a Dutch community. And they all knew about us, which is also weird because usually if I go outside of WordPress space, nobody knows who I am or what I did. So I was like, I was flabbergasted that there was this whole group of people, only men, but still, that were working with WordPress, but but didn’t know about the fact that there is this whole community behind it. And I think, well, you’re you’re correct that WordPress or that Microsoft probably has the same.
Marieke van de Rakt [00:05:03]:
But because we are open source and we need people to invest their time and energy into making the project better, we we should do a bit more, marketing and telling people why WordPress is so awesome, because that’ll help us. I think that’ll help us. So the the person I was talking to actually said that he didn’t know if he would he wanted to stay with WordPress because, things were getting I don’t know I don’t know what he said because I didn’t listen because I said, of course, you have to stay with WordPress. He promised me that he would come to Word Camp Europe because he said to me he called me missus Yost, although I’m not no longer by you with Yost, but, well, with the person, but not with the company. But he said, if missus Yost says that I have to go to WordCamp, then I’ll come. So
Maciej Nowak [00:05:53]:
Alright. Okay. I I don’t know if I like missus Yost. You know, not the person, obviously, but the term.
Marieke van de Rakt [00:06:02]:
I don’t know either. But he was like, if you say that because he he didn’t know Yoast, the company, and was very, like, impressed, to to meet me and and and everything. But and then I said, but you’ve never come to a WordCamp, and you’ve been building WordPress sites since, I don’t know, since 2010 or something. So a very long time. And he said, yeah. I never never went there. And I think there are a lot of, a lot of companies that go to different events that are also have their own community in in in in in in having a business or being an agency at which we don’t reach as a WordPress community now, and we should be able to reach more of those people. That’s the least I think.
Maciej Nowak [00:06:46]:
And and there and there is a big PHP, community as well with all of those PHP cons and and and so on. And, WordPress being on PHP. I would say there is an like, a natural source of, like, backing. Although those are more like application level technologies like Laravel or or other or symphony, but I would say this is very, very close because PHP get a lot of, like, sometimes bad rep. Like, this is the language and so on. And there is go. There is, like, you know, enterprise technologies and so on, but still people are crushing it in in in PHP, spinning up websites and applications very fast. So so it’s like everyone saying PHP is dying and and it’s not
Marieke van de Rakt [00:07:32]:
Well, then we’re trying as as well, I think so. No. Yeah. You’re you’re totally right. So I think it’s important to look outside of our own bubble, and at at the same time, our bubble is great. Because I also noticed that if you if you want to, if you want to make a product in WordPress, so I don’t know if you want to have a plugin or something else, then the community alone is not enough as the people that do you need to be able to reach beyond, the the WordPress bubble of people that are really invested in WordPress. And in order to reach those people, yeah, well, you probably need to go to different events depending on which that’s always the reason why while working at Yoast, we always were with 1 foot in the WordPress community and the other 1 in the SEO community, which is very different type of community because I think the SEO community has has opened up a lot, but used to be much more money driven. And those were crazy events with with a so a really big difference between the the the 2.
Marieke van de Rakt [00:08:37]:
But that also helps getting our message across because we were known in 2 big communities where people talk about you. That’s that’s good. So I think every we all should, make an effort to look outside of the WordPress world as well.
Maciej Nowak [00:08:53]:
Mhmm. And what would you say? Because this is this is, like a very correct statement because 1 thing is if you are not looking outside that bubble, you you are not you are missing out, basically. Because everyone is saying the same thing. There’s echo chamber. Everyone’s the same with the same community. I have a feeling like that that also WordPress community is special. After the pandemic, I was in Vienna for Worldcom Vienna, and then met a couple of people. It it was so open.
Maciej Nowak [00:09:28]:
They have English trucks, so I was, like, I I felt very welcome. I spent the whole day on the corridor talking with people, and I was amazed how open the people are. I based on that, on that, you know, openness of those people, I went to Porto, huge event, 3 or 2, 3 thou 4000 people there. Again, same thing. Everyone is very open, and this this was amazing. I can conclude that, you you I that I agree that you have to get out of that bubble to make that button bubble better, to to pull those experiences to to to also to grow. And I have a feeling that you had a great, great opportunity and a great chance with with Yoast, plugin that you had those 2 bubbles. 1, the technology space and then, SEO space choosing yours solution or even maybe choosing WordPress.
Maciej Nowak [00:10:25]:
Thanks to that, legendary good SEO reputation WordPress has, because this is what I hear from people, CMS and, SEO capabilities for WordPress.
Marieke van de Rakt [00:10:35]:
Yeah. I get that. And and I, I also think that you appreciate our community more if you look outside the bubble. That’s really so the the fact that, if you if you are you can be a bit spoiled by how awesome it is or or not see it anymore because because if you don’t see how how other events are or how other communities are, especially the people. And I I do like the people in the SEO community as well, especially in the, in the recent years, they’ve opened up a lot, but still it’s a different, different type of events in a, in a WordCamp. Everybody is nice to you and it’s easy to talk to to every everybody. So I think I like the fact that there is an after party, at least at work computer, there’s always an after party, which everybody can attend, and a lot of people come, and you can talk to so many different people. I always meet new people.
Marieke van de Rakt [00:11:27]:
I still meet new friends.
Maciej Nowak [00:11:29]:
Exactly.
Marieke van de Rakt [00:11:30]:
Yeah. Exactly. I think because I’m not easy at making friends. I don’t know why, but I don’t necessarily make friends easily. I have a lot of WordPress friends. So I’m I’m able to make friends in work camps. Yeah.
Maciej Nowak [00:11:43]:
Yeah. That’s because you you are, you you are already in that group that, you know, that’s I think this is also an attitude that you identify with that group that has good reputation at being open. And then you you have to blend in and people naturally are opening up when they are entering that group and, behaving like that group. So it’s like, you know, positive feedback loop that, you know, people joining that Work Camp community behave like that community. Entire opening happened to it’s so easy to to blend in this way.
Marieke van de Rakt [00:12:17]:
Yeah. I feel really safe as well. So it’s a very safe space. Not that I’ve been attacked in other communities, but you you know that people are going to be nice because that’s expected of you.
Maciej Nowak [00:12:28]:
So Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. But, you picked my interest with that, SEO space, because I have no idea what does it mean. Like, what who who are those people? Like, are these agencies, SEO agencies, founders, experts, you know, how, how does it work? Because it’s curious. A lot
Marieke van de Rakt [00:12:46]:
of marketers, a lot of salespeople. I think the SEO space, but that’s like 10, 20 years ago was, also a space in which you could make quick money because it was then very beneficial to rank high in Google. And then the methods were sometimes a bit questionable. Nobody in the SEO space now is doing those things anymore, but you you could hack Google, like, 15 years ago, and that’s that’s that’s gone away. But there there so in that space, people make much more money than they used to do in the WordPress space. Because I think in the WordPress space, that grew. That that that grew because I think in the early days, nobody made money in WordPress. So that was a very big difference in the SEO space.
Marieke van de Rakt [00:13:30]:
There was a lot of money, except we were were not making money then and then not and we also began making money in the SEO space. But WordPress was was something that was more of a hobby for for a lot of people, and that totally changed in the in the in the past 15 years. So now it’s a professional community as well. But there are still a lot of people that are not in it necessarily to make money out of it. They would I think most people want to make a living out of it, but it’s not all about making money. So that’s a big difference, and, of course, you have exceptions as well. It’s a it’s a lot of, yeah, marketing people, people working at big agencies, big, yeah, big SEO tools. You have a lot of SEO tools that that are big, like, and, I don’t know, more.
Marieke van de Rakt [00:14:23]:
Those those kind of tools are in there as well.
Maciej Nowak [00:14:25]:
Let’s talk about for for a second about, Yoast plug in. You were also, for for a couple of years, CEO of Yoast. I’ve had last week so but also very recent, a conversation with, another CEO who’s also a woman running an their own her own company for 30 years. And there the the challenges she faced as, you know, being a woman in a technology space and, you know, different expectations, the way she has to deal with things as a woman versus, you know, what she what she, what she upsells, from men, let’s say, CEO. So are you open to tell to this? How how was it for you?
Marieke van de Rakt [00:15:14]:
Well, I think it’s very important to, know that my husband was the former CEO. So that that is a is an interesting dynamic because I think I was except in the company, I was, I think I was not without them because and I don’t want to, like, say anything bad about my husband, but I think he agrees that even before I became CEO, I was the CEO. So he he and it’s not that I was the boss because we were very we had a management team of 4 or 5 people depending on we always made decisions together, but I was the 1 telling people we have to make a decision now, and we’re going to look ahead. So the tasks that are that should be with the CEO were the tasks that I initiated. And then at 1 point in time, we decided to to let me be the CEO. And he he he because I’m not good at finance, so he always did that. So every CEO is different. I didn’t feel it was different to lead the company, locally or at least within Yoast.
Marieke van de Rakt [00:16:21]:
It was I everybody respected me. I didn’t have any issues in that, but I had had those issues before because I was Yost’s wife. And a lot of people just assumed that I was having that task because I was married to him, because he, at least, he was the founder. Internally, people didn’t think that anymore because they all saw that I was doing a lot of work. If you look at my resume, I have I’ve I’ve done
Maciej Nowak [00:16:51]:
BH d. BH d. You have BH d.
Marieke van de Rakt [00:16:53]:
Yeah. So I I had, like, my my I think I’ve earned the trust of the company. That was different outside of Yoast because a lot of people didn’t know me because Yoast is much more visible, and and he enjoys that more than I do. And a lot of people just thought, who is this girl?
Maciej Nowak [00:17:13]:
Mhmm.
Marieke van de Rakt [00:17:14]:
So that was difficult for me sometimes because then you have to show your what you’re worth.
Maciej Nowak [00:17:23]:
And prove yourself.
Marieke van de Rakt [00:17:24]:
Yeah. And I I and and we can we can compare. So I I get much more questions about how I deal with my job and my 4 children. Well, Yost never got those questions, and he also had 4 children because we we have them together. So Mhmm. He had that question. He was like, why are people asking you that? I’m like, I don’t know. And I I feel I’m I’m very proud of my children, so I like talking about them, but I stopped doing that because that is all I I talk about because people just do that because I’m a woman, and and I and and I think it’s more interesting to talk about what I did at Yoast than how I combined those tasks.
Marieke van de Rakt [00:18:11]:
I know I said some to someone once, you know, there are a lot of everybody has a mother. It’s just most women have children, so that’s not the thing that’s interesting. So that was a different thing. And and at defense, I don’t yeah. It’s different. I think I I manage, but I know I I remember going somewhere. It’s not even if I’m with Yoast, people assume that I’m his wife, but we are 2 other partners who were both male as well. If I went somewhere with with them, they would assume that I was married to them.
Marieke van de Rakt [00:18:47]:
They always assume that I was someone’s wife. Well, that was well, I know I remember I was speaking at a WordCamp, and, 1 of our my colleagues joined me, and they just assumed that he was speaking and that I was coming along. And it’s very awkward to
Maciej Nowak [00:19:06]:
This is awful. I I it’s Yeah. Yeah.
Marieke van de Rakt [00:19:08]:
Well, yeah, that happens. It just happens. And it’s also because people don’t they don’t mean any bad with it. So it’s you don’t want to, upset people or being too outspoken to say, hey. You’re mistaken. I’m the 1 speaking. So you want to do that subtle so that people don’t feel bad because they made the wrong assumption. I’m also a very bubbly person, a bit bit ADHD ish.
Marieke van de Rakt [00:19:38]:
So people just tend to underestimate what I can do because I I don’t know. I’m very outgoing and stuff. I don’t know. It’s just just happens all the time. And that means that that the difficulty is that you you know, you have to correct that, not let it get to you and show what you can do. And, it sometimes does something with your self esteem or with your confidence. So it it is hard. I wouldn’t necessarily want we’re we’re now doing it together with Emilia.
Marieke van de Rakt [00:20:13]:
The CEO role is also very out there. So you’re and that so the internal part of of managing a team and, looking for for for to what is coming and and and strategic planning, that’s something I can do. But outside of it, so the communication with partners and stuff, that’s I found that very difficult. And I think he looks better at that than I am.
Maciej Nowak [00:20:40]:
You mentioned that there are different, CEOs and different, like, areas of expertise. I read about this in, Ben Horowitz book that there is, like, wartime CEO and peacetime CEO. And I have a feeling that, you know, the the mindset is very different in those, like, areas. It’s obviously, like, very startup growth, etcetera, like, setting. But with what you said is I can relate to it when I’m thinking about other agencies. So we we we we we have an agency. We started it as software engineers or, you know, computer science graduates, etcetera, building applications previously, and now building websites on top of WordPress. And what I, say, to you being better at managing organization and not maybe outgoing with partnerships, you know, being the, like, the the outspoken face of of of the company.
Maciej Nowak [00:21:37]:
I compare that to other agencies where they were founded by, designers or marketing people or salespeople building marketing agencies. And they have different DNA. During different phases of the company, there are different, different needs, of that company because this is natural that when the company is growing, you have the like, at the steering wheel, there have to be a different person because of the challenges that that person can solve for the company.
Marieke van de Rakt [00:22:09]:
So So I think Jost, the person, was very good at growing that first company, and he was he’s very outgoing. So he spoke well, he’s not. He’s an introvert, actually, but he’s he’s very good at speaking at events and doing the marketing. And, but the the growth of the company or the the ability to to grow further and to to, to build a team, that was something that he, well, he wasn’t interested in. So he’s not it’s not that he’s he’s a lovely person, but he’s not interested in in in hiring people. Or so that was the part that I used to do. And I also think that he’s a very practical person, so he still writes codes a lot code a lot. So he just had, like, a ton of ideas on how to improve the product.
Marieke van de Rakt [00:22:58]:
But if you run a bigger company, you also have to take time and think, okay, where are we going? What is our next step? How are we going to strategically do this? How are we going to reach the the correct people? And I, and that’s the role that I took. And I think together, we are we also we we are a great team because we really, well, we we add we add a different thing to the to the dynamic. And I I can’t do that without him, but he says he can always.
Maciej Nowak [00:23:29]:
You. He he told
Marieke van de Rakt [00:23:30]:
me that I’m because he was he is the founder of Yoast. But, at my goodbye party, of Yoast, he said that I’m now allowed to call myself cofounder because he couldn’t have done it without me. So I’m I’m the cofounder of Yoast.
Maciej Nowak [00:23:45]:
Perfect. Yeah. It’s like, that recognition that came at the, at the goodbye party. Right?
Marieke van de Rakt [00:23:53]:
And it became public. He’s always been very, vocal to me at least about I can’t do that without without you. We’ve been together for a very long time. So I’ve been with and I know I know that’s true, but that’s that doesn’t mean that what he did wasn’t extraordinary. I think he did an extraordinary thing and that I, well, I’m I’m far less creative, at least in in I can’t even write code. So I I couldn’t have done it without it myself.
Maciej Nowak [00:24:24]:
You mentioned that also you were with the with the within the company for a long time as well when this was growing. So I wonder, you know, how did you find that, how did you find that, tasks to do, let’s say? Or, like, how did you, decided this is that part that we need to, take care of, you know, for during those meetings, you know. I because I have a feeling this was very organic for you that you have blended in and naturally it you you develop that, that part. Like, you invented your a job for yourself because this was so natural. So I’m curious to know how how how what was the process that you end up, you know, doing so much within Yoast?
Marieke van de Rakt [00:25:11]:
Well, Yoast built something that I used. So so, the SEO plugin is is something that writers use, but he he wasn’t, well, he also writes, but he is a technical person. So what we quickly found out is that I am much more like the users of Yoast than he was. And we always used to talk about the Yoast.
Maciej Nowak [00:25:36]:
Perfect combination. Like, 2 2 pieces of old Yeah.
Marieke van de Rakt [00:25:39]:
But I know it’s
Maciej Nowak [00:25:40]:
young and younger.
Marieke van de Rakt [00:25:41]:
You you so for started to grow, you first need the early adopters. Yoast is an early adopter. I’m not. And so he totally understands what those people want. But if you then want really want to grow, you would need to have a product that’s appealing to people that are not because there are only that many developers that that do SEO. So that’s I I actually came up with the idea of the readability analysis that we have, which focused much more on texts. And that meant that text and writing became very important in Yoast SEO. So that’s something that I added to the mix.
Marieke van de Rakt [00:26:17]:
And I think I made I mean, I did a lot of research. I’m a researcher. So I did a lot of user research in the early days to see who are our users? Can we define certain groups? And that’s how we came up with the Yoast and Marieke’s, the people that are early adopters, that are more technical, that want to use SEO as a way to, I don’t know, to did they really understand what Google does? And then you have a group of people that want to rank high in the search engines, but actually can’t do anything else, in the technical department except writing. And that’s I think what we made out of that is something that’s really usable for a really large, group of people. And that’s I don’t know. That’s just I kept thinking about and doing thinking about the the the user and making make and making it’s the the the product has to be like, I could use it. And I think that’s that’s something that we did really good. And I see that because we’re now investing in all kinds of other companies.
Marieke van de Rakt [00:27:20]:
I see the same problems arising. So the first the first people to adopt a new plugin are usually developers or people that understand what the what, what the plugin actually does. But if you really want to make it successful, you need to have more people wanting it apart from that small group of developers. Because otherwise, it will not become at least a commercial success.
Maciej Nowak [00:27:45]:
I I love that you are that, in those, I forgot the the title of that book, but there’s that crossing the cast. I I forgot the author, but there are those early adopters, you know, early majority and so on and so on. And there’s that chasm between, 2nd and the third, 3rd group. If you cross, you are successful, you cross that. And I have a I have a feeling, that that ICPIDR customer profile of Marika was that 3rd silo 3rd and 4th silo, maybe. So that’s you were that, your what’s your what was your job? You know, writing was that target for the product of yours to to reach. Right? So it
Marieke van de Rakt [00:28:30]:
the And they were mainly I remember that because we we did a re I’m so I am I’m a social scientist, so I knew a lot about about collecting data and then doing all kinds of analysis. And I remember that we did an analysis and we found distinct groups. So you had developers, and then you had, people that were not that skilled, but more SEO marketing people. And then you had writers, and they were mainly women. I remember that as well because we asked that. So you could just see those groups, and you could also see that that who were more inclined to buy something premium. So doing a lot of research has also helped us. I think in thinking about, what your user base is going to be.
Marieke van de Rakt [00:29:14]:
Yeah.
Maciej Nowak [00:29:14]:
And I think I I think this is very difficult to get. Do you use a research? You know, if you are early and, you know, you would have to go to a specialized agency doing that research or try to implement it in house, and this can be, like, skewed because someone is not doing this right. And, you know, with that background of yours But
Marieke van de Rakt [00:29:36]:
how I
Maciej Nowak [00:29:36]:
think you were you yeah. You that that was like a perfect, like, like that, turbo boost that you got to fine tune early because of that all of that research that now you’re probably you know, since you are a researcher, you get excited by doing research. So it’s, like, not natural for you to do that stuff.
Marieke van de Rakt [00:29:54]:
Yeah. And I’m not that good in the in the collecting of the data, but then that’s something what Josh is really good at. I mean, we didn’t know that. So I was writing my PhD, and I was already with him. And I did not know that he was so good at, well, in managing data because in my PhD, I had a lot of data. And if I had known that in that phase of my that would have that would have saved me a year from writing my dissertation. But I didn’t know that then. But then when I was working at Yoast, I noticed that he was really good at the things that I’m I’m not that good at because that’s a lot of programming and and that’s just not something I’m very skilled at.
Marieke van de Rakt [00:30:33]:
And we I never knew that that was the same thing that he was doing. So we
Maciej Nowak [00:30:37]:
Wow.
Marieke van de Rakt [00:30:37]:
Put this together. Yeah.
Maciej Nowak [00:30:39]:
Alright. Yeah. So speaking of a of a great duo, now you run Emilia Capital, and I would love to know the story. How did how did it happen?
Marieke van de Rakt [00:30:48]:
Well, even before we sold Yoast, we were doing really well and, wanting to to contribute, but also seeing opportunities in people we knew who were trying something new. So we invested in a few WordPress product. We also invest outside of WordPress, especially in the Netherlands when we see something that’s interesting, then we would invest. And then we decided we only want to invest in things that make sense to us. So it’s either open source or it’s something that’s good for the environment, so sustainability. Or it should be, something that’s founded by a woman because that’s very, very, important to me. We have 1 investment that does all 3, which is which is the best.
Maciej Nowak [00:31:37]:
Wonderful. Yeah. Yeah. And so Would you like to talk about it?
Marieke van de Rakt [00:31:41]:
Yeah. That’s that’s I I think they’re almost ready to really launch. That’s Kanopy. That’s that’s a WordPress plugin that’s going to measure the amount of, C02, the carbon thing that, your website uses. So it’s, it’s and they are they’re working on it, and they’ve been working with universities to get that right, because there are coming all kinds of laws to the to Europe and to the UK, in which people are obliged to, well, to report how much carbon carbon carbon footprint. Yeah. That’s the thing. I’m always talking in Dutch in my head about that.
Marieke van de Rakt [00:32:19]:
So people need to know how much they are using up. And and if you want to reduce your your carbon footprint, you at least have to know what you are using. So that’s something that’s, that that that is almost done, I think, and will be released.
Maciej Nowak [00:32:35]:
Yeah. Interesting. And and this is, this is for websites only. Right? Yeah. Or or is okay. Yeah. Because there is, I think, 2, maybe, tools online that can calculate that for you, but I guess, you know, you have to trust their word.
Marieke van de Rakt [00:32:50]:
Yeah. Well, this is on your own this is better. I don’t know enough about it yet, but I’m really excited about, about what they are building and about what is going to be. Yeah.
Maciej Nowak [00:33:03]:
Mhmm. Alright. Yeah. So this is interesting. Yeah. So please continue about about, like, a founding story of EMEA Capital.
Marieke van de Rakt [00:33:09]:
Well yeah. So we we had had been doing a few of, investment before, we sold Joe’s, and then we sold Joe’s. And we we, both ended up working a little while there, but we were already thinking, okay. What are we going to do next? For me, it makes a lot of sense to, give back to the community. So so part of what we’ve made in money with Yoast has to go back to new good things for the community. And so we do a lot of WordPress things. I think we’ve, last year, we’ve done so so many that we’ve now hit pause a bit because we also want to be able to help our investments. And if you’re only checking out new ones, it it becomes really, really, busy because we now have I think we have 12 companies in which we have a share.
Marieke van de Rakt [00:34:04]:
Sometimes we only have, like, 1 or 2%, but we also have investments in which we have, I think, 20. So there are a lot of differences in, in what we do. And we help those companies to get them being successful and, yeah, that’s what would you say Yoast helps with development and the product side, I help with marketing, and maybe a little bit of strategy. Yeah.
Maciej Nowak [00:34:31]:
Interesting. I I know about 1 of your, about 1 of your investments, which is white cloud, by WCS. And I I talked with, Roger, Zaida about, you know, how your investment changed their, changed their, like, company and all of, like, for example, your input into, like, driving them. This has to change. You should do this differently and so on. So so he said a lot of good things coming from you as, as investors in their company. You know, that because there’s, like, everyone’s saying that that there is money money and there is smart money. And you don’t want to have only money, but also that that backing that expertise.
Maciej Nowak [00:35:16]:
And this is very interesting that, you are able to give them,
Marieke van de Rakt [00:35:19]:
the network, of course, in the WordPress world is really good because we’ve been around for such a long time. We know we know people that have been around for a long time. We also know love people in in the big companies because we’ve spoke with all of them when we were in our acquisition process. And so we know a lot of people, which also helps helps just be able to, well, to connect people, easily and to to for for plugin companies to talk to the right people at hosting companies and those kinds of things. So that helps as well. Our network is really useful. Yeah.
Maciej Nowak [00:35:55]:
Mhmm. And and you mentioned that, actually, this was 1 of my questions. You know, what’s the, investment thesis for, thesis for, for Emilia, but you mentioned that there are there are 3 pillars. And interestingly, you mentioned that, you know, woman woman led, businesses. And, again, I was thinking, is there, like, anything you can think of that that would help, you know, women or even girls, you know, join that technology space? What what can be done differently so that you not end up as a the lone woman woman in the, startup event?
Marieke van de Rakt [00:36:33]:
Yeah. I think it’s it’s hard. So what you’re what you’re saying is all truth. It’s very in societies. So so, we’re all ex. There are different expectations for what a girl is and what a what a boy should do. And I also try I have I have 4 children. I only have 1 daughter.
Marieke van de Rakt [00:36:51]:
And we try to do to to raise her exactly the same as her her, brothers. But there is a lot of lot of different things that influence her as well. So her friends and social media and all stuff. Now I think she’s doing really, really well in school and all kinds of stuff. Stuff. She should should follow her own path. But these these things do influence us. And I don’t know.
Marieke van de Rakt [00:37:17]:
So I went to a startup event, and I asked because I’ve I was really flabbergasted. I was there as like a mentor. So there wasn’t a single female start up entrepreneur there because I was actually the mentor. So I was the only woman in in the in the in the room. And so they said they there are female entrepreneurs, but they don’t come to these events. So I it could well be that facing more challenges, because you do face more challenges because there are a lot of prejudice and stuff, that women are less inclined to do networking events because they feel like I have so much to do, And this is something that perhaps is not necessarily useful, but in the end it is. So if they’re not doing those kinds of events, they don’t meet investors and have and and those, like, there’s those bonds. So creating those bonds is good for getting your startup, on a role.
Marieke van de Rakt [00:38:20]:
Only that’s not like a direct effect. So I don’t I I was III already offered to the organization saying, if you want to brainstorm about how to get more women to these events, then I’m I’m there. We do find, female investments, but I also because if there we we receive slide decks of all kinds of, companies. And if the company is founded by a woman, I would set it apart and really take a close look. So I would be very much the the more inclined to say yes because it’s a woman. But the the majority of slide decks that come to us are not by women.
Maciej Nowak [00:39:01]:
I would say this is extremely complicated matter because it’s on so many layers. You have, the situations like now with, like, extremely lower number of, women found start found startups. On the other hand, there are, some talks about, like, enforcing a certain percentage of, women in, boards, for example. And you felt that yourself when you were in Yoast that people were, like, automatically, like, turning to that man instead of looking at the, you know, who are who are they talking to. Right? So I have a feeling, like, unless this is, like, organic change that from the, younger people changing their behavior, changing their perception of that, changing the those stereotypes that, you know, inviting girls to those math classes, those those, hard sciences. If this is not natural, it might be difficult to be accepted. Because how do you decide?
Marieke van de Rakt [00:40:11]:
I agree that it’s difficult, but I do believe in quota because because because I think because those girls need role models. So you need to have someone to see and look up to and see, hey. She looks like me and she’s doing the same thing. Even if she’s doing a crappy job, then perhaps they think I could do better. That’s even even even better. And I think it’s very important to have people, women, or that goes for for all kinds of diversity. But if you have a diverse board, what people tend to do is hire people that look like them. And, if you have more women in the board, the chances are that you’re are going to hire more women just because so so the board of Yoast is very female still, and it wasn’t.
Marieke van de Rakt [00:40:56]:
When I when I became CEO, all of the other 1 were men. And we’ve really changed that because I think because I became CEO, we got more female applicants. And I think that because I was in the room making the decisions, the chances are just high higher that you hire someone. So if in the same startup event, people were talking about, if you trust your gut when you hire someone, they said, because then, because you you should really be able to collaborate with people. And then I said, but if you, white men, all trust your gut, you’re going to hire only white men because they are the ones you understand. Because they just that’s just you you hire people that look like you because if you do trust your feelings, that’s just easier to connect with. You understand how they how how those people work because you are 1 of them. So what I so I think at Jost, we did pretty good at the the the men female ratio, but we and we didn’t have that much diversity in terms of cultural diversity.
Marieke van de Rakt [00:42:03]:
And whenever we had someone from a different culture applying, then we gave that person an an extra interview just to make sure that we were not prejudiced because we didn’t understand the culture. Because if someone just is different because he grew up in a different country, and then it it might be that you just don’t connect to someone as easily as as another candidate, but that doesn’t mean that they’re not a a good employee or will not be a good employee. So I think if you have even, like, in a quota, which I’m I would never want to be chosen anywhere just because I’m a woman, but I’ve been on so many stages just because I am a woman. And I do that because I want to be a role model and then do really my best to present well, and I usually do. I’ve I’ve especially been on a lot of stages because I’m a woman. I’m always now invited to talk about our acquisition and not Yost because there are very few women that, did an acquisition, and Yost totally fine with it. But that’s the reason that I’m there and not him. I always know that.
Marieke van de Rakt [00:43:16]:
And everybody knows that. But that doesn’t mean that I can’t, present my my my story well or tell good stories. So I think, like, okay. I’m there because I’m a woman, and I’m going to do my absolutely fucking best and just yeah. So so I think we need those. We need to have quotas, and we need to make sure that there are enough women in role models.
Maciej Nowak [00:43:40]:
This is very interesting what you said about being a role model because I have never thought about this before. I was more worried that there is a space. Before quota, let’s like like, a word before quota and let’s say after quota. And there are women like you, that and that, you know, with hard work and and everything. And then there is that that triggering moment with a quota and initial candidates that would be hired. I have it like like a I have that worry that everyone every woman that was doing what she did with this, I’m not saying hostile, but diff more difficult for them environment to get where they are they are right now. And and now you you as a company has to some hire someone who is a woman. And okay.
Maciej Nowak [00:44:35]:
I had to how am I going to compare when as that woman who was doing this for 10 years, let’s say, fighting for that, you know, recognition and everything. And now someone has to be hired just because
Marieke van de Rakt [00:44:51]:
Even if it it has to be, I’m, like, confident enough that there are enough women that could fulfill the job. So it’s just a matter of time for people to see that she is, in fact, capable. And there and there will be some issues in which it backfires, but but I we have to do something.
Maciej Nowak [00:45:11]:
But price of the change?
Marieke van de Rakt [00:45:12]:
Yeah. Yeah. I think so. And and, if there are not enough people that believe in the fact that women actually can do something, then that that should, yeah, that that should be become clear. That’s just
Maciej Nowak [00:45:27]:
But I I especially like the, the role model idea because, if this is the case that you were receiving much more female applicants, this is super interesting because I never thought about this that now applicants are looking who is the CEO or who is the head or what is the board who is there. And now, like, okay. There is a woman. So so I
Marieke van de Rakt [00:45:50]:
can do that. Fair enough. If you look at, and word camps are doing great, but there are also events where there are fewer women on stage. If you’re in if you’re already like, women are more modest and this is just how how we were raised, I think. And if you see someone on stage who is a woman and is presenting, like, this awesome talk, then you perhaps think, oh, maybe I can do that. If you see someone on stage who is a woman who does a crappy job, then I would think I can do better. And both is good because you see someone who looks like you on stage and just the thought I could do that, that’s something that should, that that should pop up in in women’s hat more hats more. And that’s and that also goes for other cultures, and people need to see someone in a place that they can look up to that looks like them.
Marieke van de Rakt [00:46:43]:
And I think in in in the WordPress community, we’ve we’ve done that really well. And those there are there are events where it’s not we we I just had once had an event, and we accidentally didn’t have AAAA lineup that was, totally, like, equal. And then we we fixed it because that that happens sometimes. You have people that you asked for your event and they back out, and then you’re you just you you ask someone else, and then all of a sudden your lineup is, like, 80% male. Then so and then we then then we change it. But so in WordPress also, that sometimes happens without bad intents. But we’ve we’ve been doing a really good job in having female speakers, having cultural diversity on stage, and that reflects on what the community is. So I think that’s that’s really awesome.
Marieke van de Rakt [00:47:37]:
Mhmm.
Maciej Nowak [00:47:37]:
Yeah. I I I’m I’m curious how this is going to to develop, and I have a feeling that work camps are like, that that that paper measurement, for the acidity. How do you I it’s like saying in Polish, but what I was going to say is that it’s it’s like a proxy to what is going to happen in other, let’s say, tech technologies or spaces or because this is so inclusive, I would say, that other communities or other spaces can look at it at the like, what what’s going what’s what’s happening in terms of good things, and also about the struggles, that the community has doing that because it’s not like, you know, only good stories. Right? There there there is there are always problems and it’s like like, like a small lab, testing those ideas. Right? And seeing this in smaller scale, how this can scale up to societies, let’s say.
Marieke van de Rakt [00:48:41]:
Yeah. I think in a lot of cases and that doesn’t mean that everything is is, like, perfect in WordPress because it isn’t. But it is ahead of a lot of societies and, of other communities in terms of diversity and, openness. WordPress is doing really well in that regard. Yeah.
Maciej Nowak [00:49:01]:
That that that was, interesting interesting thing to to talk about, not intended at all. I’m yeah. And I but let’s let’s talk about still, Emilia. You have the fund. Right? And, you are doing investments and want to help the companies. And I was, I was thinking about this. The general, like, wisdom is that you have to do, like, 1,000 investments to make 1 that will hit really big.
Marieke van de Rakt [00:49:30]:
Thousand is a lot. So I think 1 in a 100 does a really big thing. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think I’m I’m I’m smarter than that. No. That’s not true. So I think a lot of top we we also do investments that are more towards we really have to make money out of this, but that’s something that our bank does, for us.
Marieke van de Rakt [00:49:54]:
So and and then we also invest in good things and in environment stuff and and all. But these are things that we’re passionate about ourselves and also that I feel that would benefit the WordPress world or the world in general. And I don’t know whether or not we will actually make a lot of money out of that. Even when we were when we were still at Yoast, I always thought that we were really lucky and just we just had luck. I don’t think that anymore. I think I think we really
Maciej Nowak [00:50:26]:
That modesty that modesty speaking through your No.
Marieke van de Rakt [00:50:28]:
It’s good. No. Well, I now see other companies, and I’m like, no. I really what we were doing really well. Maybe accidentally. So we we x or organically. That’s what you said. That’s or get that it just grew that way, but we really knew what we were doing.
Marieke van de Rakt [00:50:43]:
So this whole investment also led to a new we have we are building a new plug in, Yos and I and some of our employees, which will I think will come out this spring or something. Because we think now we’ve we’ve done this before. We we now know, how this works. And I also think that we could do it better than other companies. I’m not modest anymore. And, we want to try it again. And the
Maciej Nowak [00:51:10]:
next fun again.
Marieke van de Rakt [00:51:11]:
Yeah. Having fun. It gets really fun to work at something and to, so so I I missed that. Because if you are an investment adviser, you you’re mainly in well, you’re in a in a few meetings, and I write a few, but I don’t know. I’ve I’ve I’ve write things to advise people, and they then do what I wrote down. But doing something yourself or or building something, and I’m I’m not writing the code, but I’m thinking along the way on how it will look like and what it will be, that’s something I really enjoy. And, I also think that even if it will not become success because you don’t know that’s really hard to become successful, that we learn a lot about, and, about a new WordPress situation because WordPress has changed since the last time we we launched the plugin. And that, that will help, give better better advice.
Marieke van de Rakt [00:52:03]:
But I agree with you that it’s not necessarily we’re not going to be rich out of all of these investments. Some of them are things that I really believe that are going to, be big, but some of them will probably not, be successful. That’s
Maciej Nowak [00:52:19]:
Yeah. I’m asking about this because this is totally different situations, a situation than what big funds are doing, who big, big venture capital is doing because the the there’s different dynamics. The these are someone else’s money managed by, big, big fund, and you are doing this for yourself with different tempo. You are not, pressured to spend all of that money in the given year and so on. You can have your own, let’s say, agenda. You can decide. First of all, you won’t be judged if you make this amount of return, on all of your hold the portfolio and so on. So this is like I would say this is like a a leisure fund, like, you know, done for for your, at your own tempo, at your own rules, and so on.
Maciej Nowak [00:53:05]:
So this is totally different game, but still I’m I’m thinking about that big number, law that says, like, this is, like, tiny percent that will succeed, bigger percent that will do okay, and the rest will, let’s say, lose Yeah. Sadly.
Marieke van de Rakt [00:53:21]:
Yeah. I think you’re right. So that that will probably be the the case, and that’s okay. I think we know that that part of it will will lose. We do think, but that’s just we’re not modest, that we are, able to to influence it a little bit. But that’s the and and we’ve already learned a lot. So I also now know what to pay attention to if you choose, a new investment and also what not to do. But every every start up thinks that they are going to be really successful.
Marieke van de Rakt [00:53:56]:
And, I tended to believe all of them, and and that’s not well, they they probably are not. So most startups are not going to 10 x. That’s just the the so they’ll become 10 times, the worth that they are right now. Most of them will just be okay or will just go bankrupt. Yeah. That’s what it is. But if they, in the meantime, add benefit to the WordPress ecosystem or add benefit to the users, then I think that’s good as well. And we are smart people and we don’t invest any money that we can’t miss.
Marieke van de Rakt [00:54:32]:
So we will not be Yeah.
Maciej Nowak [00:54:34]:
The this is the ground rule. Right?
Marieke van de Rakt [00:54:36]:
Yeah. And we we adjust. We never had any investors, so we sold. But before that, there were not no investments. And the reason because we didn’t want to was that most investors say, well, you have to make an exit in in, like, 5 years or there’s there’s a plan. And we didn’t want that. At the at the end, we did want to sell, but we didn’t know that. And a lot of so we never say that to any of our companies.
Marieke van de Rakt [00:54:59]:
We either we want to make a company profitable, and then we’ll get part of the profit because we are shareholder, or you can sell at 1 point of the time. But there’s no, like, pressure on what the our portfolio companies need to be doing. They oh, they need to be either be, profitable or make an exit at some point.
Maciej Nowak [00:55:24]:
Mhmm. And and I I also noticed that there is very little, I would say, fans like you in the space in WordPress space. Like, maybe to what you said before that back in the days, the WordPress was not, like, profit focused, and this is what I was also talking with with further as part of our talk was, dedicated to making money on WordPress. And this is only, like, emerging. Maybe there’s a little bit of a trade on, let’s say, plugins. Like, IIA solo solo developer will is say selling his plugins, someone is buying it. But, like, fans oriented, like, a big part on like, oriented in big part on WordPress, III can’t think of anything like you. The only 1 I’m thinking of or maybe 2.
Maciej Nowak [00:56:17]:
1 is sector hosting, companies buying plugins or companies or, you know, technology. This is this is 1. And the other 1 is say say it bulky with also Motive. And that’s it. That’s it. So
Marieke van de Rakt [00:56:30]:
Well, I think so the the the fact that it’s so the hosting companies all make a lot of money in WordPress, but, a plugin is in WordPress is always open source. And for a lot of investment companies, that’s weird because it can be, duplicated and sold immediately. So what you have to do in WordPress, if you have a plugin, is build a brand because that’s the thing that protects it. Because you can just fork any plugin and then go sell it, but it will probably not work if you if you fork a plug in because everybody will just think, what are you doing? But for investment companies, that’s really weird. We had to explain the whole open source comp concept because we in the end, we sold to new folks who understood open source. But we also had some, well, bigger investment agencies in our, in our process, and they didn’t understand open source. And they were like, this is a really, scary business model. Everybody can just, take it away from you, and then you’ll have you’ll you’ll have nothing anymore.
Marieke van de Rakt [00:57:33]:
So it is a difficult model, which a lot of people don’t understand. So I think that’s part of the reason why there are few investors in. And it is a difficult business model. It is. It is difficult to to make money out of open source software. It’s not Why is that? Because software. It’s not Why is that? Because of open source?
Maciej Nowak [00:57:51]:
Because everybody can fork it. So and it happens.
Marieke van de Rakt [00:57:53]:
That happens. That really happens. That happens. That really happens.
Maciej Nowak [00:58:00]:
Or bypass the license.
Marieke van de Rakt [00:58:01]:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right. So you get a lot of, criticism if you put too many things in your premium product, and then you will be forked and then what people will do. But if you do to so so that’s like a like a trade off thing. But if you don’t have enough in your in your premium product, then you don’t make enough money to to support it. So it’s it’s it’s always hard.
Marieke van de Rakt [00:58:28]:
So at Yoast, we have a lot of criticism on what’s in premium, and you should be, and you should have, like, a viable, free product. But if you we had a we had 13,000,000 users. That’s a lot of users to, well, to to help, and and they’re not paying. So that’s that’s that’s the the the the weird trade off, I think, in in in the open source software that that
Maciej Nowak [00:58:55]:
These were 13,000,000 users on free plan?
Marieke van de Rakt [00:58:58]:
Yeah. And on free. And I think
Maciej Nowak [00:59:00]:
Oh, wow.
Marieke van de Rakt [00:59:01]:
Yeah. That’s a lot.
Maciej Nowak [00:59:02]:
And you were replying to their questions. And so
Marieke van de Rakt [00:59:04]:
You can’t. That’s impossible. Okay. So that’s impossible. So that that that you can’t do this only forms, but 30,000,000 users, that also means 30,000,000 different users that all use different plugins. And that also makes it it makes WordPress hard. The environment of every customer is different because everybody has a different plugin setup. And in order to, like, make sure to merge with all of them, that means that you’ll have a lot of issues, and Yoast have a lot of those issues.
Marieke van de Rakt [00:59:33]:
And I think we don’t we and they’re still doing really well in that regard, but it is hard to, to do all of that. So to have the the fact that you’re open source and that you’ll get a lot of criticism and even people, while forking your plug in or making what we had was so we we had so 13,000,000 free users and far less premium users. I don’t know how many they have. I think they’re doing better than we did. But there there are, like it’s it’s, like, 2 or 3%. That’s that’s it. What what we used to do is place ads in your free version. But people will get annoyed with those ads.
Marieke van de Rakt [01:00:14]:
And then there would become the then someone would build a plug in to remove the ads in Yoast SEO free, which would make it harder to sell our stuff, but we need to sell our stuff in order to also get new features out in the free plan. So it’s an entire it’s a difficult business model to have. And, also, what to do, should you should you not do AAA premium, a free plugin? But how do you get your your the attention? Because you have to have a free plugin to be in a repository. So it’s it’s a different business or difficult business model, I think.
Maciej Nowak [01:00:51]:
That’s super interesting. And yet, knowing all of those, like, limitations, risks, and so on, you are now working on a new product.
Marieke van de Rakt [01:01:00]:
Yep. Yeah. K. But we are yeah. Yeah. So I don’t know if it will work, but I’m very enthusiastic at least at, building it.
Maciej Nowak [01:01:09]:
Yeah. Is there any AI involved?
Marieke van de Rakt [01:01:12]:
Not yet.
Maciej Nowak [01:01:14]:
Not yet. I like the not yet part.
Marieke van de Rakt [01:01:17]:
No. I think I think we have ideas. And I it’s so my husband is an early adopter, so he gets all about things.
Maciej Nowak [01:01:28]:
He’s up to his ears in in what’s happening right now. Yeah. By the way, I just learned, like, yesterday that there is that, that tool, called, Devine, and this is, like, out, autonomous, let let me Google that, from Cognition Labs, and they created, Dev, you know, which is, you know, AI agent. And they assigned him an Upwork job of, building a model in Python. And the the Upwork job was to build the model in Python to mark, damage to the roads. So there was, like, a training set of number of pictures with marked note. There is a hole, there is a crack, whatever. The prompts to to do that job, you know, they gave him the prompt.
Maciej Nowak [01:02:15]:
Figure this out. You know? Devin, please figure this out. What’s happening on those trainings? And this is amazing that that he’s that that agent succeeded. And this was, like, the yesterday or the the day yes or the day before yesterday. And I I can’t stop thinking about this because, you know, it’s it sounds like and I’m I I tend to ask all of my recent guests about AI. You know, what how I started when GPT, wrote out and know how this is going to change SEO and content creation. Now we know that Google just addressed this in March that they are, buying, you know, day and day and day and indexing those farms. But this is crazy that you can have a, an agent that will take the whole repository on git hub.
Maciej Nowak [01:03:03]:
All of those images, they it will crank it and produce results with 0 prompts from you other than, you know, Upwork description. So I wanted to, like, introduce the AI to the end of this conversation and not yet a part of your, of your, like, plug in is very interesting to me. What what how how it’s unavailable.
Marieke van de Rakt [01:03:27]:
I think so. What, what Yoast Yoast is using a lot of AI. I am no. I’m I’m not I I am old school. I’m not an early adopter, so I will do that in a while. But especially to build things. So he gives a lot of prompts, and it helps him to develop much faster and much better because he knows what to build and then AI helps him to build it, which makes him makes all of us, I think, a lot of a lot smarter. But it’s yeah.
Marieke van de Rakt [01:03:56]:
But the idea are still the ideas are still human, but the the work is done by, I don’t know, Yost always calls AI, like, having 20 interns. If you tell them what to do, they’ll do all the work, and you don’t have to do anything anymore, but you still have to tell them what to do because they are a bit stupid. Yeah. Mhmm.
Maciej Nowak [01:04:18]:
Yeah. Or yeah. They are they are limited. So so Yeah.
Marieke van de Rakt [01:04:22]:
So the the the the you have to tell give them really good instructions, and then you’ll get really good results. That’s the yeah.
Maciej Nowak [01:04:30]:
Mhmm. Wow. Interesting. Interesting. I I will pay attention to your to your tweets and, and and feeds yours and and and yours. I’m I’m super curious what you are.
Marieke van de Rakt [01:04:41]:
Really fun. It’s such a fun plug in. Something nice.
Maciej Nowak [01:04:46]:
Yes. Yeah. Fun of and especially fun for you. This is like, you know, I guess, since you it’s like you sold the host. You have Emilia Capital. And now what you are going to build, I think number 1 priority is fun because you don’t have to do that. You know, it’s you are not pressurized to do anything. So number 1, fun, and then, you know, backing to the community.
Maciej Nowak [01:05:07]:
But at the end of the day, it’s nice to have a profit, you know, to to cover the expenses of building all of that. Yeah. That’s that’s interesting. Yeah. Alright. Marieke, thank you so much. It was very interesting conversation with a lot of unexpected avenues, especially around, inclusivity and and and balance, let’s say. So I I wasn’t expecting this, and it was was super interesting to hear it from you.
Maciej Nowak [01:05:34]:
And once again, thank you very much, and see you maybe around in, WorldCamp. Yes.
Marieke van de Rakt [01:05:40]:
For sure. Yeah. We booked a flight yesterday. So
Maciej Nowak [01:05:43]:
Oh, nice. We have to do this to are you going to have a booth there?
Marieke van de Rakt [01:05:48]:
No. We’re not. We had 1 last year. No. We we decided not to do that. I thought it was exhausting.
Maciej Nowak [01:05:54]:
Yeah. I bet. I bet. And and especially if you were, like, filling up that round, let’s say, of of companies, that’s that’s fine. But if you are not going to be as active in this space this year, I I don’t think this makes sense.
Marieke van de Rakt [01:06:08]:
No. No. We’re we so we we will be there. I applied to speak, but we haven’t heard yet. But, I’m going anyway, so it doesn’t matter if I yeah. So I’ll see you there. I had a really fun time talking to you as well. So thank you.
Marieke van de Rakt [01:06:20]:
My pleasure.
Maciej Nowak [01:06:21]:
My pleasure. This was super interesting for me. Thank you very much.
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